What is the point of Labour ?

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, sophia said:

You could but you'd be wrong.

Inaction during an election would have set fire to a narrative that, in the context of our reporting environment, would have derailed the campaign.

I'd bet that Leonard and Corbyn would have referred the matter to an internal party mechanism and the impression of leadership by apparatchiks.

 

After dealing decisively with him when the cameras were on, all was forgiven when parliamentary arithmetic was at stake, and more to the point keeping the Baathists onside.

[sophia]

11 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

No.

I think it points to a media-led attack which is seemingly never-ending.

The orchestration of this campaign to paint any criticism of Israel as anti - semitic is incredibly orwellian.

What campaign?

Who is orchestrating?

[welshbairn]

Just now, sophia said:

What campaign?

Who is orchestrating?

The Israeli Embassy.

 

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

8 hours ago, pandarilla said:

No.

I think it points to a media-led attack which is seemingly never-ending.

The orchestration of this campaign to paint any criticism of Israel as anti - semitic is incredibly orwellian.

If Labour are ever going to have any kind of power in British politics again, I'm afraid Labour zealots (pun intended) are going to have to face up to reality.

Instead of blaming some kind of sinister forces for their failures, it would be better if Labour faced up to the fact that the country rejected them because of the bumbling, indecisive, incompetent, mumbleclown college lecturer that they had as leader.....someone who refused to take a decisive stance on the most important event in the last 70 years, and someone who/'s incompetence eventually presented Johnson and his right-wing crew an open goal.

Perception is everything in politics and the perception of the UK public was that this man could never, ever be seen as a PM. People recognised the 'sinister forces' as the Momentum fuckwits controlling Corbyn from the back, and they rejected Labour because of that.

As much as I detest Labour, the UK as a whole needs an opposition that at the very least can be seen as electable. And to do that, Labour will have to become a centrist party.

And if that pisses off the Wolfie Smith twats in the meantime, all the better.

 

[Wee Willie]

2 hours ago, Bob Mahelp said:

If Labour are ever going to have any kind of power in British politics again, I'm afraid Labour zealots (pun intended) are going to have to face up to reality.

Instead of blaming some kind of sinister forces for their failures, it would be better if Labour faced up to the fact that the country rejected them because of the bumbling, indecisive, incompetent, mumbleclown college lecturer that they had as leader.....someone who refused to take a decisive stance on the most important event in the last 70 years, and someone who/'s incompetence eventually presented Johnson and his right-wing crew an open goal.

Perception is everything in politics and the perception of the UK public was that this man could never, ever be seen as a PM. People recognised the 'sinister forces' as the Momentum fuckwits controlling Corbyn from the back, and they rejected Labour because of that.

As much as I detest Labour, the UK as a whole needs an opposition that at the very least can be seen as electable. And to do that, Labour will have to become a centrist party.

And if that pisses off the Wolfie Smith twats in the meantime, all the better.

 

I dinnae disagree but I'm hoping for an independent Scotland so your scenario would be 'oot the windae'

On 27/06/2020 at 07:45, NewBornBairn said:

If Labour gets power in Westminster, the SNP will lose support from those on the Left who see independence as a route to a socialist country. A national Labour government spending on public services will always be more attractive than a Tory government.

 

Put another way, the Tories are the best recruiting Sergeant the SNP could ever hope for.

You're an even bigger day-dreamer than me.

Do you really see a UK Labour government spending loads on public services in Scotland?

It will be more of the same old, same old. Fancy big projects in England that Scotland has to pay for.

Trident still at Faslane and still as costly.

And Labour still competing with the Tories as to who can send the most dicks to the HoL.

Is this what you want for Scotland?

[Newbornbairn]

Quite happy to have Trident.

[pandarilla]

The Israeli Embassy.
 

I really hope sophia replies to this.

Although surely this video is in danger of being labelled anti semitic? And well, you've went and shared it... So...

If Labour are ever going to have any kind of power in British politics again, I'm afraid Labour zealots (pun intended) are going to have to face up to reality.
Instead of blaming some kind of sinister forces for their failures, it would be better if Labour faced up to the fact that the country rejected them because of the bumbling, indecisive, incompetent, mumbleclown college lecturer that they had as leader.....someone who refused to take a decisive stance on the most important event in the last 70 years, and someone who/'s incompetence eventually presented Johnson and his right-wing crew an open goal.
Perception is everything in politics and the perception of the UK public was that this man could never, ever be seen as a PM. People recognised the 'sinister forces' as the Momentum fuckwits controlling Corbyn from the back, and they rejected Labour because of that.
As much as I detest Labour, the UK as a whole needs an opposition that at the very least can be seen as electable. And to do that, Labour will have to become a centrist party.
And if that pisses off the Wolfie Smith twats in the meantime, all the better.
 

You're changing the issue.

I can perfectly understand this post, and the point behind it. I don't agree with it, but it's perfectly reasonable.

But are you happy to ignore the issue of fake anti semitism claims to discredit people? Do you think the maxine peak article was anti semitic? Do you think it was a legitimate reason to long bailey?

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

4 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

But are you happy to ignore the issue of fake anti semitism claims to discredit people? Do you think the maxine peak article was anti semitic? Do you think it was a legitimate reason to long bailey?

I must admit that I'm not involved enough with Labour to really care all that much about the inner machinations of the party.

To answer your three questions though, as someone who is an SNP member ;

-I think Labour were done up like kippers by the right-wing media. And not for the first time. However, since the days of Blair, Labour have long been their own worst enemy where it comes to presenting a public face to 'undecided/centrist' voters. There's extremism in the far-left of the Labour party which may or may not be anti-semitism, and Corbyn did nothing to challenge that. It became an open goal for the Tories.

-No, I don't.

-At face value, no. But Starmer is correct to firstly show that he has authority and isn't afraid to use it, and secondly to begin a purge of Corbynites who have made the Labour party a laughing stock. If Labour want to gain power....and not just merely be a party of protest that are utterly unelectable.....this is what Starmer has to do. 

[Wee Willie]

43 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said:

Quite happy to have Trident.

Of course ye are!

Happy for your kids and grandkids to grow up in a Scotland with nuclear weapons less than 30 miles from Glasgow.

One nuclear accident and there's a radio active cloud hanging over the Central Belt.

And that's Scotland fucked (including Stirling)!

There was a MoD report just before the 2014 referendum deciding what could be done regarding Trident if Scotland voted for independence.

The conclusion was that the rUK would have to give it up as nowhere in England would accept it.

But there's always Scotland

[Newbornbairn]

1 minute ago, Wee Willie said:

Of course ye are!

Happy for your kids and grandkids to grow up in a Scotland with nuclear weapons less than 30 miles from Glasgow.

One nuclear accident and there's a radio active cloud hanging over the Central Belt.

And that's Scotland fucked (including Stirling)!

There was a MoD report just before the 2014 referendum deciding what could be done regarding Trident if Scotland voted for independence.

The conclusion was that the rUK would have to give it up as nowhere in England would accept it.

But there's always Scotland

Fine by me.

[Wee Willie]

12 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

I must admit that I'm not involved enough with Labour to really care all that much about the inner machinations of the party.

To answer your three questions though, as someone who is an SNP member ;

-I think Labour were done up like kippers by the right-wing media. And not for the first time. However, since the days of Blair, Labour have long been their own worst enemy where it comes to presenting a public face to 'undecided/centrist' voters. There's extremism in the far-left of the Labour party which may or may not be anti-semitism, and Corbyn did nothing to challenge that. It became an open goal for the Tories.

-No, I don't.

-At face value, no. But Starmer is correct to firstly show that he has authority and isn't afraid to use it, and secondly to begin a purge of Corbynites who have made the Labour party a laughing stock. If Labour want to gain power....and not just merely be a party of protest that are utterly unelectable.....this is what Starmer has to do. 

I'm the same but do you really think Labour is a left-wing party?

They have a royalist as leader and their previous leader endorsed John Bercow for a knighthood!

Does anyone still think Labour is a Socialist party or are they one of twa cheeks o' the same arse as far as Scotland is concerned.

[velo army]

I initially didn't think that the video was anti-semitic, and nor did I, or do I think that Long-Bailey should have been fired. 

I have changed my mind on the former, and begun to understand the latter.

Criticism of israel is not necessarily anti-semitic, but it sometimes is. There's been a lot of stuff doing the rounds that essentially lays the death of George Lloyd at the door of the Israeli government. The focus has been moved away from the ingrained racism in American policing and more towards the fact that some of them have been trained by the IDF.  

Anti-semitism has often been presented through theories that the Jews are running things, that they are the hidden hand working the "system". This is the dog-whistle implied through the posting of videos linking Israel to police brutality in the states. American police are putting their knees on the necks of black people because American policing is racist as all f**k, not because the israelis are telling them to.

American police go to the israelis for training because the yanks like the cut of their jib. The USA have a weird paranoia about themselves that they could be invaded at any moment, or that they are constantly under threat (I was frequently asked over there why "everyone hates America" and an exhibiting of a strange persecution complex) so it makes sense for them to jump into bed with a nation whose very existence is constantly under threat. 

It is obviously concerning, but the implication from a lot of what i've seen shared is that the israelis are influencing US police to behave in a way they wouldn't otherwise. So aye, it plays into that anti-semitic narrative of a murky agent in the background pulling the strings.

Rebecca Long-Bailey should have learned from the endless smears against her party that any criticism of Israel will be viewed through a lens of anti-semitism by opponents and the media. She should have checked with someone first. Keir Starmer may have wanted an excuse to rid the party of the left wing. I'm not so sure. He needs the party to not be derailed by anti-semitism rows as it was in the last election. I don't agree with the sacking, but I do understand it.

Tl;dr, the video was anti-semitic and KS wasn't out of order in sacking RLB.

[pandarilla]

I must admit that I'm not involved enough with Labour to really care all that much about the inner machinations of the party.
To answer your three questions though, as someone who is an SNP member ;
-I think Labour were done up like kippers by the right-wing media. And not for the first time. However, since the days of Blair, Labour have long been their own worst enemy where it comes to presenting a public face to 'undecided/centrist' voters. There's extremism in the far-left of the Labour party which may or may not be anti-semitism, and Corbyn did nothing to challenge that. It became an open goal for the Tories.
-No, I don't.
-At face value, no. But Starmer is correct to firstly show that he has authority and isn't afraid to use it, and secondly to begin a purge of Corbynites who have made the Labour party a laughing stock. If Labour want to gain power....and not just merely be a party of protest that are utterly unelectable.....this is what Starmer has to do. 

Thank you for the genuine answers.

But f**k me if you don't think that the media - led campaign to destroy the left in Britain with this fake shite is a very worrying development - then i don't know what to say to you.

And to credit starmer for good leadership when he's used an issue like this?

Would you describe yourself as left wing? Is the snp leadership left wing enough for you? (taking out the issue of independence, which we both agree on, and which clearly needs specific tactics to succeed)

[NotThePars]

45 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

There's extremism in the far-left of the Labour party which may or may not be anti-semitism, and Corbyn did nothing to challenge that. It became an open goal for the Tories.

 

The Labour report leaked back in April pointed out that factional opponents of Corbyn deliberately sat on reports of anti-semitism while they briefed their mates in the press that Corbyn was doing nothing about it.

[welshbairn]

41 minutes ago, velo army said:

Tl;dr, the video was anti-semitic and KS wasn't out of order in sacking RLB.

Do you mean the Al Jazeera video (first in a series) I posted, the article RLB praised or both?

The Israeli Government has a legitimate national interest in keeping public and political opinion onside in both the US and UK. In the US it's mainly to do with money, arms and having the world's biggest superpower's backing on the international stage. In the UK it was against their interests to have a Labour Party led by somebody who was clearly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, especially at a time when the boycott movement was having an effect. For them not to be using all in their lobbying power to influence the Labour party's attitude to Israel and the Palestinians would be negligent in the extreme. I don't think they did anything wrong, neither do I think there's anything antisemitic in pointing out what they did, and how they went about it.

Edited June 28, 2020 by welshbairn

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, NewBornBairn said:

1 hour ago, Wee Willie said:

One nuclear accident and there's a radio active cloud hanging over the Central Belt.

And that's Scotland fucked (including Stirling)!

Fine by me.

^^^ Raploch resident found

[velo army]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Do you mean the Al Jazeera video (first in a series) I posted, the article RLB praised or both?

The Israeli Government has a legitimate national interest in keeping public and political opinion onside in both the US and UK. In the US it's mainly to do with money, arms and having the world's biggest superpower's backing on the international stage. In the UK it was against their interests to have a Labour Party led by somebody who was clearly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, especially at a time when the boycott movement was having an effect. For them not to be using all in their lobbying power to influence the Labour party's attitude to Israel and the Palestinians would be negligent in the extreme. I don't think they did anything wrong, neither do I think there's anything antisemitic in pointing out what they did, and how they went about it.

Sorry, I meant the one RLB re-tweeted.

[pandarilla]

Sorry, I meant the one RLB re-tweeted.

Did she not retweet an article?

What video is this you're talking about?

[velo army]

Aye, shite, I meant the article. 

Made a wee arse of my post tbf.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

If the Minnesota police were trained by any other country then they would not have said anything.

It was pretty clear what the agenda is - George Floyd was killed by racist police, racist police were trained by Israel, therefore Israel supports racist police.

It's simplistic pish of the worst kind.