What is the point of Labour ?

[Miguel Sanchez]

17 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

This "worst ever exchange" seems to be a potential Labour voter asking fairly basic policy questions that a seemingly experienced activist knew were essentially unanswerable. From anecdotes like this, more switched on Labour people surely know they are heading to a difficult spot in the longer term. They are either going to come up very short on the central 'change' theme of the campaign, or they will have to be much less conservative on tax and spend compared to how Starmer and Reeves have positioned them. Either way, they are almost certain to end up pissing off parts of what looks like a broad but quite shallow coalition of voters.

Then again, there might not be a functioning Opposition for the next five years, so maybe they are gambling on getting away with it. 

I've read this thread twice and I don't understand this man at all. She asked him questions about the policies he was supposed to be telling her about and... she made her feel bad because he felt condescended to? How can people reach adulthood and be this naive?

[tamthebam]

Aged relevative in the same constituency as I am got a Labour leaflet through the door personally addressed to them

I have received nothing. 

The same thing happened at the last election. 

I like the idea that I'm some kind of lost cause not worth bothering with. F*ck you Ian Murray. 

[Granny Danger]

Noticing Labour’s anti-SNP message featuring heavily on YouTube.

[Leith Green]

14 hours ago, tamthebam said:

Aged relevative in the same constituency as I am got a Labour leaflet through the door personally addressed to them

I have received nothing. 

The same thing happened at the last election. 

I like the idea that I'm some kind of lost cause not worth bothering with. F*ck you Ian Murray. 

I usually get to the mail first in our house and all of Murrays pish goes straight in the paper bin.

It would be nice if the moon faced twat popped by to ask if I was voting for him, but sadly he could do a jobby in the Waitrose doorway and the auld "I hate the SNP" tory wifies of Morningside would still vote for the p***k.

I can get the "The SNP need a boot in the stones" mindset, but its like most of these people about to vote Labour - 

(a) Dont remember their lies in 2014

(b) Havent even bothered to look to see what kind of a party they are in 2024

Yippee, lets vote for the party who support the 2 child limit, Brexit, invited Natalie fucking Elphick in, and will give us Austerity MKIII

[Freedom Farter]

Arbeit macht frei.

 

[Granny Danger]

15 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Arbeit macht frei.

 

There are lots of families in poverty where the parents are working.

[tamthebam]

34 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Arbeit macht frei.

 

You can be in a job but be on a poor wage. 

Especially if you work for Anas's relatives allegedly

[Granny Danger]

Labour will keep Bibby Stockholm barge open.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-yvette-cooper-bibby-stockholm-asylum-b2568391.html

It might be acceptable if they said “For logistical reasons we can’t close it on day one but everyone will be rehoused within 3/4 months.”  Not ideal but at least a clear commitment; however a clear commitment is alien to Labour.

[Crùbag]

On 23/06/2024 at 23:32, tamthebam said:

You can be in a job but be on a poor wage. 

Especially if you work for Anas's relatives allegedly

 

Yeah, most people on benefits are already in work apparently. Labour must know this. Just more Tory policies from these utter barstewards. Sarwar a millionaire too that exploited workers on pitiful wages in his company firm.

[Jedi2]

The SNP could of course abolish the two child cap but chooses not to.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-could-axe-controversial-two-30515520

As the IFS (yes, them again, point out)

Spending on social security benefits and state pensions is the biggest area of public spending: across Great Britain, it is forecast to be £277 billion in 2023–24, of which 55% goes to pensioners (£153 billion) and 45% to those of working age and children (£124 billion) (Department for Work and Pensions 2003).

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/constraints-and-trade-offs-next-government

There has been a significant increase in health related benefits claims since Covid (as expected).

Surely if more people are in work rather than benefits the overall cost is reduced? (And yes, it does still require decent paid job creation) 

As the IFS also points out, with public debt to GDP ratio at over 90% (highest since the 1960s), and interest on debt repayments rising, (currently £112 billion a year) any incoming govt, to invest in Health, Education, Benefits and Social Care, has to make cuts elsewhere. You can't keep borrowing indefinitely or bring in tax hikes when folk are already struggling 

The Tories have wrecked the Economy with Truss' mad plans, Brexit, and their misuse of Covid funds, and delivered low growth into the bargin. There isn't a magic wand that waves it all away in a few months or a year or two (or gets us jumping back into the EU next year). It takes time, to get things growing again, and bring in new investment while trying to get debt to fall..not an easy balance.

The whole Labour 'signing up to Tory cuts' is a smokescreen..they aren't. Rather they are going in trying to repair a lot of damage.

 

Edited June 25 by Jedi2

[sparky88]

On 22/06/2024 at 17:00, tamthebam said:

Aged relevative in the same constituency as I am got a Labour leaflet through the door personally addressed to them

I have received nothing. 

The same thing happened at the last election. 

I like the idea that I'm some kind of lost cause not worth bothering with. F*ck you Ian Murray. 

I can only imagine the elation you'd feel if you received a leaflet from Ian Murray.

I don't like to boast but I received a leaflet from him on Monday. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:26 by sparky88

[KirkieRR]

8 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

The SNP could of course abolish the two child cap but chooses not to.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-could-axe-controversial-two-30515520

As the IFS (yes, them again, point out)

Spending on social security benefits and state pensions is the biggest area of public spending: across Great Britain, it is forecast to be £277 billion in 2023–24, of which 55% goes to pensioners (£153 billion) and 45% to those of working age and children (£124 billion) (Department for Work and Pensions 2003).

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/constraints-and-trade-offs-next-government

There has been a significant increase in health related benefits claims since Covid (as expected).

Surely if more people are in work rather than benefits the overall cost is reduced? (And yes, it does still require decent paid job creation) 

As the IFS also points out, with public debt to GDP ratio at over 90% (highest since the 1960s), and interest on debt repayments rising, (currently £112 billion a year) any incoming govt, to invest in Health, Education, Benefits and Social Care, has to make cuts elsewhere. You can't keep borrowing indefinitely or bring in tax hikes when folk are already struggling 

The Tories have wrecked the Economy with Truss' mad plans, Brexit, and their misuse of Covid funds, and delivered low growth into the bargin. There isn't a magic wand that waves it all away in a few months or a year or two (or gets us jumping back into the EU next year). It takes time, to get things growing again, and bring in new investment while trying to get debt to fall..not an easy balance.

The whole Labour 'signing up to Tory cuts' is a smokescreen..they aren't. Rather they are going in trying to repair a lot of damage.

 

Loyal Labourite cites the Daily Express. To think it's come to this.

[Jedi2]

11 minutes ago, KirkieRR said:

Loyal Labourite cites the Daily Express. To think it's come to this.

All about 'could they do it'? (Scrap the two child cap)? Here's a different one:

https://www.ippr.org/articles/scrap-the-cap-if-not-us-who

[lichtgilphead]

7 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

The SNP could of course abolish the two child cap but chooses not to.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-could-axe-controversial-two-30515520

I see that Jedi is quoting the "Scottish" Daily Express again. I wonder why he didn't quote the BBC from only two days earlier?

"Scottish Labour oppose UK leader Starmer on two-child benefit cap"

"Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar has previously described the policy as "heinous"."

"He has now been backed by his deputy, Jackie Baillie, who said it damages families and "exacerbates poverty".

She told the BBC's Good Morning Scotland programme: "We don't know the financial mess that the Tories have left the country in. We need to be responsible about the pledges we make.

"But I am very clear, and Scottish Labour is very clear, we remain opposed to the two-child benefit cap and I will do everything in my power to encourage my party to do exactly that."

Anyhow, let's leave Labour to their two-faced policy differences, and look at Jedi's claim about the SNP's choices

In July 2023 (at the time of the BBC article), there were "over 80,000" children affected in Scotland, and around 1.5 million across the UK. At a cost of (52 weeks x £65), that equals £3380 per child per year. This unit cost is the same both north & south of the border.

Accordingly, as the cost per child is the same, the policy is equally affordable on a per capita basis whether Labour choose to mitigate it across the UK or the SNP mitigate it in Scotland only. 

But hey, SNP Baaaaaaddddd! Labour prudent!

 

[Highlandmagar]

8 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

The SNP could of course abolish the two child cap but chooses not to.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-could-axe-controversial-two-30515520

As the IFS (yes, them again, point out)

Spending on social security benefits and state pensions is the biggest area of public spending: across Great Britain, it is forecast to be £277 billion in 2023–24, of which 55% goes to pensioners (£153 billion) and 45% to those of working age and children (£124 billion) (Department for Work and Pensions 2003).

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/constraints-and-trade-offs-next-government

There has been a significant increase in health related benefits claims since Covid (as expected).

Surely if more people are in work rather than benefits the overall cost is reduced? (And yes, it does still require decent paid job creation) 

As the IFS also points out, with public debt to GDP ratio at over 90% (highest since the 1960s), and interest on debt repayments rising, (currently £112 billion a year) any incoming govt, to invest in Health, Education, Benefits and Social Care, has to make cuts elsewhere. You can't keep borrowing indefinitely or bring in tax hikes when folk are already struggling 

The Tories have wrecked the Economy with Truss' mad plans, Brexit, and their misuse of Covid funds, and delivered low growth into the bargin. There isn't a magic wand that waves it all away in a few months or a year or two (or gets us jumping back into the EU next year). It takes time, to get things growing again, and bring in new investment while trying to get debt to fall..not an easy balance.

The whole Labour 'signing up to Tory cuts' is a smokescreen..they aren't. Rather they are going in trying to repair a lot of damage.

 

Labour aren't interested in repairing the damage. They will play the right wing card endlessly as it wins elections down south. As for Scotland. Labour don't give a f**k about us. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

1 minute ago, lichtgilphead said:

I see that Jedi is quoting the "Scottish" Daily Express again. I wonder why he didn't quote the BBC from only two days earlier?

"Scottish Labour oppose UK leader Starmer on two-child benefit cap"

"Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar has previously described the policy as "heinous"."

"He has now been backed by his deputy, Jackie Baillie, who said it damages families and "exacerbates poverty".

She told the BBC's Good Morning Scotland programme: "We don't know the financial mess that the Tories have left the country in. We need to be responsible about the pledges we make.

"But I am very clear, and Scottish Labour is very clear, we remain opposed to the two-child benefit cap and I will do everything in my power to encourage my party to do exactly that."

Anyhow, let's leave Labour to their two-faced policy differences, and look at Jedi's claim about the SNP's choices

In July 2023 (at the time of the BBC article), there were "over 80,000" children affected in Scotland, and around 1.5 million across the UK. At a cost of (52 weeks x £65), that equals £3380 per child per year. This unit cost is the same both north & south of the border.

Accordingly, as the cost per child is the same, the policy is equally affordable on a per capita basis whether Labour choose to mitigate it across the UK or the SNP mitigate it in Scotland only. 

But hey, SNP Baaaaaaddddd! Labour prudent!

 

I know Jackie Baillie quite well and she's a good MSP for this area.  However, she and other Scottish Labourites continually employ this dishonest trope about the Scottish party continually being in policy tension with the UK hierarchy on a 'more in sorrow than in anger' basis.

In the past I've heard the line 'Ah but we're Scottish Labour' spouted by canvassers on the High Street here, suggesting that SL is some sort of freewheeling autonomous body, when the truth is the polar opposite - they absolutely take their diktat from London.

[Granny Danger]

The Labour apologists should make the most of the next couple of weeks because we will soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses.  Starmer & Co. will be exposed for the weak willed, Tory Lite mob they are and over the coming five years the electorate will realise they were suckered and become more disillusioned with politics.

 I’ve long been worried that the U.K. (or in truth England) would become to reflect the U.S.A. where the only ‘credible’ choice would be between a very right-wing political party and a fairly right-wing political party leaving many voters effectively disenfranchised.  We’ve pretty much reached that point.

[lichtgilphead]

8 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I know Jackie Baillie quite well and she's a good MSP for this area.  However, she and other Scottish Labourites continually employ this dishonest trope about the Scottish party continually being in policy tension with the UK hierarchy on a 'more in sorrow than in anger' basis.

In the past I've heard the line 'Ah but we're Scottish Labour' spouted by canvassers on the High Street here, suggesting that SL is some sort of freewheeling autonomous body, when the truth is the polar opposite - they absolutely take their diktat from London.

Yeah, Jackie covers parts of Argyll too, remember, so she refers constituents to me as part of her duties. She's definitely one of the better constituency MSP's I've worked with over the years. I have total respect for her constituency work.

UK Labour/Scottish labour policy differences are a different matter. The Branch Office always back down in the end.

[BFTD]

16 hours ago, Crùbag said:

Yeah, most people on benefits are already in work apparently. Labour must know this. Just more Tory policies from these utter barstewards. Sarwar a millionaire too that exploited workers on pitiful wages in his company firm.

The next trick is going to be sanctioning people in full-time work for not finding better paid employment. I don't think most people realise (or care) just how sanction-happy the DWP has become.

For all I know, they've already got cracking on that. When I was receiving £27 a month in Universal Credit, I got a summons to the local Job Centre to discuss what I was doing to find better paid employment, my answer to which was, "aye, I'm totally going to take a day off work to justify to you c***s why I'm only earning minimum wage". Thankfully they seemed to forget about that bullshit during the pandemic.

6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

The Labour apologists should make the most of the next couple of weeks because we will soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses.  Starmer & Co. will be exposed for the weak willed, Tory Lite mob they are and over the coming five years the electorate will realise they were suckered and become more disillusioned with politics.

 I’ve long been worried that the U.K. (or in truth England) would become to reflect the U.S.A. where the only ‘credible’ choice would be between a very right-wing political party and a fairly right-wing political party leaving many voters effectively disenfranchised.  We’ve pretty much reached that point.

Labour in 1997 got a few years where most people were just relieved and delighted not to have the Conservative Party running the country. It probably helped that they had a few American policies that the Tories swore would destroy the universe, like minimum wage and Tax Credits, before they realised how much business liked the idea of the exchequer paying at least part of their employee's wages.

Labour have no similarly popular policies this time, and there's no economic good times on the horizon. I'm not sure anyone's expecting anything from them though, it's just that the Tories have become so sickening and overtly self-interested that they need to be "punished". We'll be getting right back to "what are you going to do about <minority group>?" at some point, and Labour's reaction that that will be very interesting. I don't think Sirkeef has the stones to inflict the punishments that the public would like, and everyone's waited far too long to try outdated strategies like "logic" and "reason".

[Jedi2]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

The Labour apologists should make the most of the next couple of weeks because we will soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses.  Starmer & Co. will be exposed for the weak willed, Tory Lite mob they are and over the coming five years the electorate will realise they were suckered and become more disillusioned with politics.

 I’ve long been worried that the U.K. (or in truth England) would become to reflect the U.S.A. where the only ‘credible’ choice would be between a very right-wing political party and a fairly right-wing political party leaving many voters effectively disenfranchised.  We’ve pretty much reached that point.

So Labour essentially get what..a few weeks, months? to overturn the Tory damage of 14 years before they are dismissed as 'useless/just pandering to the right wing media/no different to the Tories'