What is the point of Labour ?

[RuMoore]

Of course Labour weren't going to sprint it home, they'll have a few hiccups but imo they'll comfortably win the next General election.

Polling for all aspects of British politics is pretty erratic right now. 

If Labour sweep up in the local elections that will put massive pressure on the Tories. 

[ICTJohnboy]

51 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

Of course Labour weren't going to sprint it home, they'll have a few hiccups but imo they'll comfortably win the next General election.

Polling for all aspects of British politics is pretty erratic right now. 

If Labour sweep up in the local elections that will put massive pressure on the Tories. 

 

Don't count on it...

Quote

Tory incumbents since 1945 have regained an average of 10 points on election day, twice the typical Labour rebound. Three Conservative governments since 1945 have faced poll deficits of more than 20 points and yet gone on to win – Sunak will hope to add his name to those of Harold Macmillan (1959), Margaret Thatcher (1983) and John Major (1992) on the great comebacks honours board.

 

[Rugbypark]

8 hours ago, Leith Green said:

The Tartan Tories (see Kate Forbes vote) will be Labour’s bitches. They can’t enable yet another Tory Govt…..

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

4 hours ago, Trogdor said:

Aye, the attack ads are going down well.

Masquerading as Tory-lite isn't the vote winner that Keith thinks it is. Its hard to know what the man actually believes in or what his vision is. 

I very much doubt he actually believes in anything.

In the same mold as Johnson and Truss in that respect.

Edited April 14, 2023 by CarrbridgeSaintee

[RuMoore]

 "believes in anything"  = having polarising views on idiotic culture war topics. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

14 hours ago, RuMoore said:

Of course Labour weren't going to sprint it home, they'll have a few hiccups but imo they'll comfortably win the next General election.

Polling for all aspects of British politics is pretty erratic right now. 

If Labour sweep up in the local elections that will put massive pressure on the Tories. 

A bit cavalier that if you ask me.  You are aware that the Tories have introduced voter ID to address a non-existent problem, other than how to disenfranchise a considerable number of people who would be intent on voting to remove said Tories.

Add to that the other factors in play such as that large grouping of 'secret' Tory voters, the right-wing media barrage which always resonates with older voters and of course the fact that the Labour party is a lukewarm petri-dish of f**k all these days.

Never confuse elections with audience reactions on HIGNFY.

[RuMoore]

59 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

A bit cavalier that if you ask me.  You are aware that the Tories have introduced voter ID to address a non-existent problem, other than how to disenfranchise a considerable number of people who would be intent on voting to remove said Tories.

Add to that the other factors in play such as that large grouping of 'secret' Tory voters, the right-wing media barrage which always resonates with older voters and of course the fact that the Labour party is a lukewarm petri-dish of f**k all these days.

Never confuse elections with audience reactions on HIGNFY.

Yeah I'm aware, it's been widely reported. 

I think the Tories are nearing the end of this particular cycle, they'll suffer at local elections and won't be able to turn it around come GE time.

I've never watched an episode of HIGNFY in my life so wouldn't even know what their audience thinks tbh. 

[AndyM]

On 15/04/2023 at 08:47, RuMoore said:

 "believes in anything"  = having polarising views on idiotic culture war topics. 

That's the entire Tory game plan for the next General Election. Moonhowlers like 30p Lee ranting and raving about culture war bullshit howling about Trans people, forriners and the EU looking to steal your cookies blah blah blah. Given their recent adverts it looks like Labour are prepared to dive into the cesspit and attempt to out-b*****d the Tories where playing the man rather than the ball is the aim.

 

[J_Stewart]

On 15/04/2023 at 08:47, RuMoore said:

 "believes in anything"  = having polarising views on idiotic culture war topics. 

Or, alternatively, "doubt he believes in anything" actually = multiple examples of him making promises and then flip flopping on them the second he hears that some focus group might not have been too keen on it.

Remember his 10 pledges? Keir certainly hopes you don't.

Remember how re-nationalising state infrastructure and services was to be a priority? Keir certainly hopes you don't. 

Remember when he committed to updating GRA in England and Wales? Keir certainly hopes you don't.

Remember when he pledged to abolish the "lifetime tax-free allowance" on pensions, only for it to be confirmed that Keir himself has a "tax unregistered personal pension"? Keir certainly hopes you don't.

Remember when he was elected labour leader, stated that "he's maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power based on the moral case for socialism" and then dog whistled his way rightwards for the next 3 years? Keir certainly hopes you don't.

There are considerably more examples. A litany of lies and hypocrisy. A man who the phrase "if you don't like my principles, I have others" was written for.

[RuMoore]

1 hour ago, J_Stewart said:

Or, alternatively, "doubt he believes in anything" actually = multiple examples of him making promises and then flip flopping on them the second he hears that some focus group might not have been too keen on it.

 

My post was aimed at the post above mine as I had noticed the poster seemingly gets animated by brain melting culture wars content. 

You posted some fair and reasonable criticism of Keir however out of all the current party leaders I'd be the most confident with him leading the UK. Changing your opinion or u-turning isn't anathema to me and happens very regularly within all political parties, most of them understand they are trying to win elections and need to cater to the electorate to an extent rather than trying to get likes on Twitter.

I appreciate some on here would prefer the Conservatives to win the next election but I'm happy with supporting Labour at present. 

[aDONisSheep]

4 hours ago, J_Stewart said:

Or, alternatively, "doubt he believes in anything" actually = multiple examples of him making promises and then flip flopping on them the second he hears that some focus group might not have been too keen on it.

Remember his 10 pledges? Keir certainly hopes you don't.

Remember how re-nationalising state infrastructure and services was to be a priority? Keir certainly hopes you don't. 

Remember when he committed to updating GRA in England and Wales? Keir certainly hopes you don't.

Remember when he pledged to abolish the "lifetime tax-free allowance" on pensions, only for it to be confirmed that Keir himself has a "tax unregistered personal pension"? Keir certainly hopes you don't.

Remember when he was elected labour leader, stated that "he's maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power based on the moral case for socialism" and then dog whistled his way rightwards for the next 3 years? Keir certainly hopes you don't.

There are considerably more examples. A litany of lies and hypocrisy. A man who the phrase "if you don't like my principles, I have others" was written for.

Gawd I feel physically sick reading that... because it's all pretty much true!

The Tories have been so abject, that I believed we had a once in a generation chance to build a more equitable (and better) society.  But alas, we're going to get "Labour branded" Tory-lite.

Wealth taxes (nope)

Fairer pay rises for public sector (nope)

Sensible economics such as joining the single market or customs union (nope)

Re-nationalisation of some of our core industries (nope)

Reform of the House of Lords (I fvkking doubt it)

Constituency members choosing local candidates (not if Sir Kier doesn't like them)

 

I really, really, REALLY wanted to believe in Kier, but he's no more than a kvnt in sheeps clothing.

Yours, bitterly dissapointed.

aDONis

Edited April 20, 2023 by aDONisSheep

[J_Stewart]

19 hours ago, RuMoore said:

My post was aimed at the post above mine as I had noticed the poster seemingly gets animated by brain melting culture wars content. 

You posted some fair and reasonable criticism of Keir however out of all the current party leaders I'd be the most confident with him leading the UK. Changing your opinion or u-turning isn't anathema to me and happens very regularly within all political parties, most of them understand they are trying to win elections and need to cater to the electorate to an extent rather than trying to get likes on Twitter.

I appreciate some on here would prefer the Conservatives to win the next election but I'm happy with supporting Labour at present. 

"changing your opinion or u-turning" is an interesting way of describing a complete 180 degree flip on his entire political philosophy. Sure it's just a coincidence that his socialist starting position, which would appeal to a large number of his party's membership, occurred when he needed their votes to become leader, and the second he no longer needed that, the shift to the right commenced. As I say, sure it was just sheer coincidence that a committed socialist in his late 50's had an epiphany and decided that I'm now an "economically centrist, socially right wing" former Director of Public Prosecutions, and certainly not that this was his position all along which he lied about to become leader. No sir.

I genuinely don't think you could get an A4 sheet of paper between him or Sunak, either politically or in terms of competence. If we have to be part of this godforsaken islands politics, then I'd rather a left-wing labour was in charge, but this isn't that, not by a long way, this is the Spider-Men pointing at each other meme in political party form, just another set of tories. When I'm being lied to and cheated, I'd at least like you to have the good graces to do it openly so I can recognise it. You know what you're getting from those fucking tory vermin, whereas Starmer and labour being sleekit scum and offering sunshine and delivering shite is just as unappealing from a results perspective, and even less so in terms of the damage it'd conceivably do to the electorate in the medium term ("that labour are no better than the tories, as well just voting for them again", etc, etc).

Edited April 21, 2023 by J_Stewart

[AndyM]

5 hours ago, J_Stewart said:

I genuinely don't think you could get an A4 sheet of paper between him or Sunak, either politically or in terms of competence. If we have to be part of this godforsaken islands politics, then I'd rather a left-wing labour was in charge, but this isn't that, not by a long way, this is the Spider-Men pointing at each other meme in political party form, just another set of tories. When I'm being lied to and cheated, I'd at least like you to have the good graces to do it openly so I can recognise it. You know what you're getting from those fucking tory vermin, whereas Starmer and labour being sleekit scum and offering sunshine and delivering shite is just as unappealing from a results perspective, and even less so in terms of the damage it'd conceivably do to the electorate in the medium term ("that labour are no better than the tories, as well just voting for them again", etc, etc).

As one of several on here "former members of the Labour Party",  you have next to no chance of anything approaching a left wing Labour government ever. That would scare the horses and have the media going mental outwith the usual Gammon press and the hard of thinking on GB News. I have no idea what Starmer actually stands for, he varies between being vanilla and bland on one hand and trying to out-b@stard the Tories on the other. 

When I was all fired up in 1996/97 about an incoming Labour Govt I had a good idea of what they would do like fixing the broken infrastructure of the UK's Schools and Hospitals left to rot under Thatcher and Major. I also knew they'd introduce the Minimum wage and Devolution.  All of these were winners with the public. But Starmer's lot?  I have no idea what they plan on doing.

I read his 5 missions which I'll summarise here: 

1 the economy duh!... 2 some green bollocks... 3 the NHS-everyone loves the NHS... 4 Crime-stop the bad people... 5 Young people-they're great!!

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by AndyM

[sophia]

27 minutes ago, AndyM said:

... 5 Young people-they're great!!

 

That's Tony you're thinking of 

 

 

[AndyM]

1 hour ago, sophia said:

That's Tony you're thinking of 

 

 

He'd be fucking better that Starmar or Sunak.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

On 20/04/2023 at 14:34, RuMoore said:

My post was aimed at the post above mine as I had noticed the poster seemingly gets animated by brain melting culture wars content. 

You posted some fair and reasonable criticism of Keir however out of all the current party leaders I'd be the most confident with him leading the UK. Changing your opinion or u-turning isn't anathema to me and happens very regularly within all political parties, most of them understand they are trying to win elections and need to cater to the electorate to an extent rather than trying to get likes on Twitter.

I appreciate some on here would prefer the Conservatives to win the next election but I'm happy with supporting Labour at present. 

Sir Keir is catering admirably to an electorate, but unfortunately it is an English one which continues to hold the rest of us to ransom on the issue of Brexit. Apart from my many other reservations on Labour, headlined by the illegal war in Iraq, Starmer's craven shitebaggery on Brexit is an appalling stance when evidence builds weekly on how disastrously it is impacting the UK.

If Labour really wants to go out and win elections as opposed to hoping anti-Tory sentiment bundles them into office by default then they should have given serious thought to restoring Ed Milliband over the ineffective inspiration vacuum that is Starmer

[RuMoore]

54 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Sir Keir is catering admirably to an electorate, but unfortunately it is an English one which continues to hold the rest of us to ransom on the issue of Brexit. Apart from my many other reservations on Labour, headlined by the illegal war in Iraq, Starmer's craven shitebaggery on Brexit is an appalling stance when evidence builds weekly on how disastrously it is impacting the UK.

If Labour really wants to go out and win elections as opposed to hoping anti-Tory sentiment bundles them into office by default then they should have given serious thought to restoring Ed Milliband over the ineffective inspiration vacuum that is Starmer

I don't really agree with this part, I think when Labour win the next General Election they'll have increased support in Scotland and undoubtedly Wales will go for him over the Tories. Not too sure about how the NI vote splits tbh. I think he's broadly appealing to a lot of centrist types that find the Tories to be all out of ideas and aren't too convinced by a socialist full on "lefty" candidate. 

I also can't help but find your description of "craven shitebaggery on Brexit" to apply equally if not more so to the previous leadership who was to blame for getting pumped in the last GE and also "ineffective inspiration vacuum" to apply more so to Ed Miliband. I like a lot of Milibands ideas and would have supported him if he was leader but the idea that he's decisively more charismatic than Keir isn't one I'd agree with. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

2 hours ago, RuMoore said:

I don't really agree with this part, I think when Labour win the next General Election they'll have increased support in Scotland and undoubtedly Wales will go for him over the Tories. Not too sure about how the NI vote splits tbh. I think he's broadly appealing to a lot of centrist types that find the Tories to be all out of ideas and aren't too convinced by a socialist full on "lefty" candidate. 

I also can't help but find your description of "craven shitebaggery on Brexit" to apply equally if not more so to the previous leadership who was to blame for getting pumped in the last GE and also "ineffective inspiration vacuum" to apply more so to Ed Miliband. I like a lot of Milibands ideas and would have supported him if he was leader but the idea that he's decisively more charismatic than Keir isn't one I'd agree with. 

With respect, I don't think you understood my deliberate reference to England.  Starmer's main pitch is to the Northern 'Red Wall' seats which returned Tories and as such, rather than argue the case for re-examining Brexit in the light of all that has turned out badly (as predicted), he has chosen the cowards way out.  You are correct about Corbyn's attitude to the EU - he didn't like it - but on many other issues he was spot-on.  Too spot-on in fact that he had to be got rid of, thanks to a right-wing media assault and a confected campaign of anti-Jewish prejudice.  Oh that Starmer was a tenth as much a threat to the British establishment, never mind being more to the 'centre' on his wretched immigration rhetoric, but maybe I'm a lefty.

Milliband talks sense every time I hear him, possibly too much for a British electorate which can elect a buffoon like Johnson.  In terms of intellect and acumen he could wipe the floor with Starmer.  Charisma is less important than competence, viz Clement Attlee and Harold Wilson.

And I think you need to read a bit on the political make-up of NI, as the mainland parties don't feature. 

 

[RuMoore]

41 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

With respect, I don't think you understood my deliberate reference to England.  Starmer's main pitch is to the Northern 'Red Wall' seats which returned Tories and as such, rather than argue the case for re-examining Brexit in the light of all that has turned out badly (as predicted), he has chosen the cowards way out. 

And I think you need to read a bit on the political make-up of NI, as the mainland parties don't feature. 

 

No I fully understood your reference I just don't think your opinion is correct. 

Starmer isn't specifically aiming for those seats, he's clearly going for a wider more inclusive centrist market that includes all areas of the UK. As I said before you'll likely see Labour increase their vote share up and down the UK, the wider electorate doesn't have Brexit at the top of their priorities so no need to aim for the red wall lot.

On the last part I'm content as it is.

[Soapy FFC]

On 15/04/2023 at 11:55, O'Kelly Isley III said:

A bit cavalier that if you ask me.  You are aware that the Tories have introduced voter ID to address a non-existent problem, other than how to disenfranchise a considerable number of people who would be intent on voting to remove said Tories.

It will be easier to register a company to commit VAT fraud than it will be to register to vote. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/07/cardiff-flat-owner-gets-tax-bills-for-11000-chinese-firms