The normalisation of the far-right continues

[effeffsee_the2nd]

2 hours ago, Marten said:

I think both systems are flawed. In principle, I'm in favour of PR as it gives a more accurate represenatation of how people vote. I also don't have an issue with coalitions. Different flavours working together isn't necessarily a bad thing. And effectively, it also happens in the UK. To say the Tories are currently split on various issues is a massive understatement, in The Netherlands they'd be 2 parties. Of Labour you can say the same. And moderate Tories have plenty in common with moderate Labour so they could also work with each other (and there are plenty of examples over time of bills being passed by both, leaving the further left/right on either party behind). Also, in FPTP you see it often that people are trying to pander to the more extremes to get votes. Cameron promised an EU referendum to stop UKIP and in the hope that a remain vote would bury that issue once and for all. We all know how that worked out! In The Netherlands, the chance of an EU-referendum happening is exactly 0, Wilders might want it but he knows very well that he won't get other parties to agree to that. He pretty much conceded already that an EU referendum isn't going to happen.

The big downsides of the Dutch system are the fragmentation & the lack of regional representation as all MPs are chosen on country-wide lists. The fragmentation is due to the fact that there are 150 MPs and you simply need 1/150th of the vote to get your party elected. The lack of local representation results in several more rural areas feeling completely ignored with nobody actually representing them. Wilders winning in many of those areas doesn't necessarily mean people in these areas are all big fans of his extreme points, but for many it's been a protest vote as the mainstream parties tend to forget these areas and Wilders has been very smart in trying to please those areas.

But the UK & Dutch systems are really 2 extremes when talking about different voting systems. There are other systems that are at least to some extend proportional, do give local representation & are less fragmented. There are plenty of examples of such systems working well in other countries. This is why the new centrist party NSC has done so well as they want such a reform to make the country better governable. And I agree with that reform which is why I voted for them even though I don't agree on everything they stand for.

Very good explanation.

If it were to happen, what chance is there a majority of Dutch voters vote to leave the EU tho? Given they are a smaller land area with many people who cross their currently open border daily, even that wee toon baarle hertog that has different streets split between Belgium and Netherlands.

We are daft island c***s but surely they don’t have the apetite to cut their nose of spite their face?

Edited November 24, 2023 by effeffsee_the2nd

[Marten]

9 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Very good explanation.

If it were to happen, what chance is there a majority of Dutch voters vote to leave the EU tho? Given they are a smaller land area with many people who cross their currently open border daily, even that wee toon baarle hertog that has different streets split between Belgium and Netherlands.

We are daft island c***s but surely they don’t have the apetite to cut their nose of spite their face?

The chance of it happening even if there is a referendum is very remote. Even a large number of PVV voters don't want Nexit and no other parties other than some very small fringe ones entertain the idea. 

[Fullerene]

33 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

We are daft island c***s but surely they don’t have the apetite to cut their nose of spite their face?

The origins of the EU were the result of countries who never wanted to experience anything like WW2 again, regardless of which side they were on.

By contrast, the UK still has people who thought it was all jolly good fun.

[BFTD]

27 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

The origins of the EU were the result of countries who never wanted to experience anything like WW2 again, regardless of which side they were on.

By contrast, the UK still has people who thought it was all jolly good fun.

That included Britain at the time. The folk involved knew exactly what kind of nightmare it had been, and most didn't want to talk about it, in my experience. The UK was a major part of the ECHR, which was set up to protect us from the horrors that our own governments had just inflicted upon our ancestors, and which our government has been building support to remove us from for decades.

The problem is that somehow the children of the Greatest & Silent Generations grew up with the notion that it was noble and jolly good fun so long as you win, and made WWII a cornerstone of Britain's, and their own, identity. They seem disappointed that they've never experienced wartime, and have become bellicose from impatience; some even seem to believe that inflicting suffering upon younger generations would be "character building". Hopefully this is an attitude that dies with them; I really don't see much of the same mindset with the youngsters, so I guess it depends on how much of it GenX has absorbed.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

That included Britain at the time. The folk involved knew exactly what kind of nightmare it had been, and most didn't want to talk about it, in my experience. The UK was a major part of the ECHR, which was set up to protect us from the horrors that our own governments had just inflicted upon our ancestors, and which our government has been building support to remove us from for decades.

That's an inaccurate account tbh. The British Empire (as it was) did not experience even remotely the same human rights impact of conquest and subjugation by a risible and brutal power. Britain and its Empire did (and has ever since) distinguished its wartime experience from 'Europe'. That's at least one fault line that led de Gaulle to veto British entry to the EEC and was replayed with Brexit. 

British involvement in the ECHR at that time was not based on any shared understanding of horrors inflicted by a domestic government. It was based on revulsion at crimes uncovered within Nazi-dominated Europe. The issue of collaboration in crimes against humanity was never relevant in the UK, while being crucial to every other post-war state in Europe. 

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

The problem is that somehow the children of the Greatest & Silent Generations grew up with the notion that it was noble and jolly good fun so long as you win, and made WWII a cornerstone of Britain's, and their own, identity. They seem disappointed that they've never experienced wartime, and have become bellicose from impatience; some even seem to believe that inflicting suffering upon younger generations would be "character building". Hopefully this is an attitude that dies with them; I really don't see much of the same mindset with the youngsters, so I guess it depends on how much of it GenX has absorbed.

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Many in the generation(s) born after seemed to appropriate the war experience as their own.

[Johnny Martin]

On 23/11/2023 at 18:01, Billy Jean King said:

Lololol. Keep fighting the good fight Johnny

Just admit I'm right.

That guy having to have the amount of protection he does is an absolute disgrace.

I'm delighted he won and the other parties are only being childish by not negotiating with him.  It's only going to accelerate the increase in his support in the long run though, which is good.

[Dan Steele]

1 hour ago, Johnny Martin said:

I'm delighted he won and the other parties are only being childish by not negotiating with him. 

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Johnny Martin said:

Just admit I'm right.

That guy having to have the amount of protection he does is an absolute disgrace.

I'm delighted he won and the other parties are only being childish by not negotiating with him.  It's only going to accelerate the increase in his support in the long run though, which is good.

That lunatic is the cause why others won't negotiate with him. He is so extreme and unwilling to compromise that there is no point. There is nothing good about his victory.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Johnny Martin said:

Just admit I'm right.

That guy having to have the amount of protection he does is an absolute disgrace.

I'm delighted he won and the other parties are only being childish by not negotiating with him.  It's only going to accelerate the increase in his support in the long run though, which is good.

[welshbairn]

Poor Tommy...

 

[jagfox]

 

[btb]

I note Tommeh Robinson was arrested at the Antisemitism march in London today, only on a Sunday eh, I wonder what his thoughts on the subject are on the other six days of the week.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by btb

[EvilScotsman]

1 hour ago, btb said:

I wonder what his thoughts on the subject are on the other six days of the week.

 

 

Pretty fucking limited, I imagine.

[HTG]

18 hours ago, jagfox said:

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tv/24863850/channel-5-schedule-nazi/amp/ 

Programme pulled.

Edited November 27, 2023 by HTG

[BFTD]

Something something perfectly entitled to her opinions something freedom of speech something should be judged solely on her abilities something woke cancel culture, who are the real nazis? large bowl of porridge.

[Lofarl]

In regards to Sam Smith.

 

Can’t we just do something to his voice box?

[HTG]

40 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Something something perfectly entitled to her opinions something freedom of speech something should be judged solely on her abilities something woke cancel culture, who are the real nazis? large bowl of porridge.

Suella - "Channel 5 is a hate channel". Or similar when she gets round to it.

[BFTD]

9 minutes ago, HTG said:

Suella - "Channel 5 is a hate channel". Or similar when she gets round to it.

As we learned during original recipe Rangers' liquidation, it's bigotry to be bigoted against bigots because of their bigotry.

[Marten]

Meanwhile in The Netherlands, as usual an experienced politician from the largest party who isn't an MP has been appointed to research coalition options. His/her task is to speak to every party leader about the result to get a picture of what could be workable. The person from Wilders' party who got appointed resigned on (what was meant to be) his first full day in the job as it turns out he has been caught with fraud in a company he used to run. Good start there!