The F1 Thread

[Boo Khaki]

7 hours ago, The Moonster said:

Has F1 always been as cut-throat with its drivers? I'm probably the most casual fan out here but it feels a bit like EPL managers in that a few bad races has everyone talking about you getting the chop. 

I know very little of Albons time in the RB seat but he looks a terrific driver to me right now. Would RB be much worse off right now if they'd given him time in the second seat? Likewise, how much better off will AT be in 2 or 3 years having binned a young guy NDV and gone with an aging Danny Ric? 

Donkeys ago there used to be genuinely awful 'pay' drivers who got their seat because they came with massive amounts of personal sponsorship. Think Lance Stroll, but even more talentless. They usually got full seasons because the teammate was usually a talented bloke who could demand a salary, so the sponsorship was necessary to  keep the books balanced. Some of these truly were hopeless, but there were other guys like Pedro Diniz who were not really any worse than the guys who are pootling around 15-20 now and managed to make a decent career for themselves. The old 107% rule was there partly to stop total no-hoper teams just pitching up and chancing their arm at participation money, but it was also brought in to ensure the 'pay' monkeys had to be at least of a minimum standard to be able to participate on race days. Back in the 80's there was a spell where some of the backmarkers weren't just a few seconds off the pace, but like 15-20 seconds slower over a lap. It needed stopped.

In terms of ruthlessness in culling drivers - it's a bit of a moot point, because Mazepin, Stroll aside, teams don't really carry 'pay' drivers any more, so the examples I can think of where a team has played pass the parcel with a seat are all pretty much cases where the team was either a mickey-mouse outfit to begin with, or in financial trouble, so they gave the job to whoever could pay race on race. Caterham/Lotus, Super Aguri, Spyker, Marussia, Hispania and so on seemed to change their drivers every race. Super Aguri were stable for a while, but even that went tits up really quickly. Think they actually folded mid-season. That 2010-2015'ish era saw a lot of teams spring up and disappear just as quickly, and I don't think it would really be permitted now. It was all a bit shambolic.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[CityDave94]

9 hours ago, Iminavest said:

NDV is 28! Giving him the drive over a genuine up and coming talent was always a mad decision. 

As preference for the drive now given to a 34 year old who was forced to take time out for a year because he was too slow to drive a McLaren who believed an new recent Indycar Champion was a better option and when that fell through they nicked Piastri from under the noses of Alpine rather than commit to running Ricciardo for one more year.

[CityDave94]

2 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

Donkeys ago there used to be genuinely awful 'pay' drivers who got their seat because they came with massive amounts of personal sponsorship. Think Lance Stroll, but even more talentless. They usually got full seasons because the teammate was usually a talented bloke who could demand a salary, so the sponsorship was necessary to  keep the books balanced. Some of these truly were hopeless, but there were other guys like Pedro Diniz who were not really any worse than the guys who are pootling around 15-20 now and managed to make a decent career for themselves. The old 107% rule was there partly to stop total no-hoper teams just pitching up and chancing their arm at participation money, but it was also brought in to ensure the 'pay' monkeys had to be at least of a minimum standard to be able to participate on race days. Back in the 80's there was a spell where some of the backmarkers weren't just a few seconds off the pace, but like 15-20 seconds slower over a lap. It needed stopped.

In terms of ruthlessness in culling drivers - it's a bit of a moot point, because Mazepin, Stroll aside, teams don't really carry 'pay' drivers any more, so the examples I can think of where a team has played pass the parcel with a seat are all pretty much cases where the team was either a mickey-mouse outfit to begin with, or in financial trouble, so they gave the job to whoever could pay race on race. Caterham/Lotus, Super Aguri, Spyker, Marussia, Hispania and so on seemed to change their drivers every race. Super Aguri were stable for a while, but even that went tits up really quickly. Think they actually folded mid-season. That 2010-2015'ish era saw a lot of teams spring up and disappear just as quickly, and I don't think it would really be permitted now. It was all a bit shambolic.

I liked the late 80's and early 90's almost every F3000 team joined in, so many teams there had to be qualifying to get into qualifying. In the end they all got whittled down to just Sauber and Jordan.

[V.Aye.R]

5 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

Donkeys ago there used to be genuinely awful 'pay' drivers who got their seat because they came with massive amounts of personal sponsorship. Think Lance Stroll, but even more talentless. They usually got full seasons because the teammate was usually a talented bloke who could demand a salary, so the sponsorship was necessary to  keep the books balanced. Some of these truly were hopeless, but there were other guys like Pedro Diniz who were not really any worse than the guys who are pootling around 15-20 now and managed to make a decent career for themselves. The old 107% rule was there partly to stop total no-hoper teams just pitching up and chancing their arm at participation money, but it was also brought in to ensure the 'pay' monkeys had to be at least of a minimum standard to be able to participate on race days. Back in the 80's there was a spell where some of the backmarkers weren't just a few seconds off the pace, but like 15-20 seconds slower over a lap. It needed stopped.

In terms of ruthlessness in culling drivers - it's a bit of a moot point, because Mazepin, Stroll aside, teams don't really carry 'pay' drivers any more, so the examples I can think of where a team has played pass the parcel with a seat are all pretty much cases where the team was either a mickey-mouse outfit to begin with, or in financial trouble, so they gave the job to whoever could pay race on race. Caterham/Lotus, Super Aguri, Spyker, Marussia, Hispania and so on seemed to change their drivers every race. Super Aguri were stable for a while, but even that went tits up really quickly. Think they actually folded mid-season. That 2010-2015'ish era saw a lot of teams spring up and disappear just as quickly, and I don't think it would really be permitted now. It was all a bit shambolic.

Perez is a good driver but in the earlier days the Telcel sponsorship money seemed to carry him a little. 

[Ginaro]

Every driver is there for financial reasons - either they/family have money themselves (Stroll), they bring personal/country sponsors (Maldonado with Venezuelan oil money, Alonso with Telefonica/Santander, etc), they bring money from another team/academy (e.g. a Mercedes driver with an engine deal), or they bring enough driving talent which allows the team to finish higher in the constructors and gain more prize money. 

[Todd_is_God]

5 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

The old 107% rule

It's still there, btw, but even in the event a car now failed to record a time within 107% of the pole time the stewards can waive it so it'll likely never be invoked again.

It was last used in the Australian GP in 2012, when both HRTs failed to Qualify

Edited July 13, 2023 by Todd_is_God

[CityDave94]

I've read that Lando Norris' manager Mark Berryman and Helmut Marko were spotted by the Telegraph in deep discussion in the Red Bull motorhome during the Silverstone weekend. Helmut Marko has always spoken well about Lando Norris and regards him as the best young driver around at the moment. Another plus is that Verstappen and Norris get along very well with each other.

Liberty Media are encouraging Red Bull to bring in a driver that can compete in the same car as Max Verstappen. Note that there is also a lot of restructuring going on behind the scenes at Red Bull.

Charles Leclerc has also been mentioned as option.

Yes both Norris and Leclerc are under contract for next season but that can change.

 

[CityDave94]

The 107% rule used to be called the Deletraz rule, if anyone remembers that guy in the early/mid 90's driving for Larrouse and Pacific.

I think the worst most embarrassing thing that could happen in a race, probably will never ever happen in F1 now since the standard of car and driver is so high, is a driver being black flagged during a race for being too slow. Has happened a once or twice in Indycar over the last 20 years. Milka Duno and street circuits don't mix for example. Smaller teams at the back of the field in Indycar used to swap out drivers to avoid this and be more competitive using speedway specialists on those tracks and road course and street circuits for a driver who was competant on those. This is rare now as most professional drivers are fairly good all rounders.

 

[scottsdad]

Loving these trips down memory lane.

In 2006 McLaren replaced Juan Pablo Montoya, who was persistently overweight and underperformed, with the amazing talent of, er, Pedro de la Rosa.

Red bull are by far the most ruthless of them all in this regard. Sainz, Albion and Gasly have all done well elsewhere.

[V.Aye.R]

12 hours ago, approximately dave said:

I've read that Lando Norris' manager Mark Berryman and Helmut Marko were spotted by the Telegraph in deep discussion in the Red Bull motorhome during the Silverstone weekend. Helmut Marko has always spoken well about Lando Norris and regards him as the best young driver around at the moment. Another plus is that Verstappen and Norris get along very well with each other.

Liberty Media are encouraging Red Bull to bring in a driver that can compete in the same car as Max Verstappen. Note that there is also a lot of restructuring going on behind the scenes at Red Bull.

Charles Leclerc has also been mentioned as option.

Yes both Norris and Leclerc are under contract for next season but that can change.

 

Verstappen and Norris may well be pals, that ends the minute they're in the same car.

Red bull will be hunting an obedient number 2 like Bottas for the foreseeable. 

Norris might actually fit that bill, I dont see him as champion material these days. Can't quite put my finger on it but he lacks that ruthless edge to him. 

[CityDave94]

2 minutes ago, V.Aye.R said:

Verstappen and Norris may well be pals, that ends the minute they're in the same car.

Red bull will be hunting an obedient number 2 like Bottas for the foreseeable. 

Norris might actually fit that bill, I dont see him as champion material these days. Can't quite put my finger on it but he lacks that ruthless edge to him. 

What reason do you think that Red Bull will be looking for keeping the status quo?

I doubt Max Verstappen would be upset if Norris or Leclerc were brought in as an equal. Racing drivers are highly competitive, its part of their nature and I believe Max Verstappen would enjoy the challenge of having a consistantly quick team mate who would motivate him to improve even more.

But you might be half right about your second sentence as far as 2024 goes which would be more down to Red Bull having a lack of options due to the top drivers being tied to long term contracts so it might come down to either Perez for one more season or Ricciardo. What would happen if Perez continues to decline and Ricciardo equals or is slower than Tsunoda in the worst car on the grid? More likely they will continue with Perez and look to 2025 to sign a fast young driver who has the potential to take over from Max Verstappen.

I have to disagree about Norris. I believe people don't think he's that good because he drives for McLaren who aren't a top team so they get used to him finishing 7th or 8th and associate this to be is how good he is rather than how bad the car has been. He's fast both in qualifying and race pace and also has the ability to bring a limping car home and has shown tremendous loyalty to his team and this looks to be finally paying off as the team moves forward rapidly. He is also highly rated around the F1 paddock and has been regarded by Helmut Marko recently as ''by far the strongest of the young drivers''. I agree with Marko, and I believe he has potential to be a top driver and a regular winner in the right car, World Champion?, maybe.

[Sarto Mutiny]

I do think Norris is way better than George Russell fwiw

[Miguel Sanchez]

Norris and Russell (and probably Leclerc) would be winning as much as Verstappen if they had that car. Verstappen is signed until 2028 and has frequently said he doesn't know if he'll stay in F1 past that given how long the calendar is, how little interest he has in the media stuff surrounding the sport and his desire to do other things. It would be very remiss of Red Bull to not attempt to have a plan in place for staying at the top.

[CityDave94]

24 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

I do think Norris is way better than George Russell fwiw

What do you think is the difference?

[CityDave94]

7 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

Norris and Russell (and probably Leclerc) would be winning as much as Verstappen if they had that car. Verstappen is signed until 2028 and has frequently said he doesn't know if he'll stay in F1 past that given how long the calendar is, how little interest he has in the media stuff surrounding the sport and his desire to do other things. It would be very remiss of Red Bull to not attempt to have a plan in place for staying at the top.

Triple crown potential?

[Miguel Sanchez]

6 minutes ago, approximately dave said:

Triple crown potential?

I'm pretty sure he's spoken about endurance racing before. I don't see him being very keen on America though.

[V.Aye.R]

1 hour ago, approximately dave said:

What reason do you think that Red Bull will be looking for keeping the status quo?

I doubt Max Verstappen would be upset if Norris or Leclerc were brought in as an equal. Racing drivers are highly competitive, its part of their nature and I believe Max Verstappen would enjoy the challenge of having a consistantly quick team mate who would motivate him to improve even more.

But you might be half right about your second sentence as far as 2024 goes which would be more down to Red Bull having a lack of options due to the top drivers being tied to long term contracts so it might come down to either Perez for one more season or Ricciardo. What would happen if Perez continues to decline and Ricciardo equals or is slower than Tsunoda in the worst car on the grid? More likely they will continue with Perez and look to 2025 to sign a fast young driver who has the potential to take over from Max Verstappen.

I have to disagree about Norris. I believe people don't think he's that good because he drives for McLaren who aren't a top team so they get used to him finishing 7th or 8th and associate this to be is how good he is rather than how bad the car has been. He's fast both in qualifying and race pace and also has the ability to bring a limping car home and has shown tremendous loyalty to his team and this looks to be finally paying off as the team moves forward rapidly. He is also highly rated around the F1 paddock and has been regarded by Helmut Marko recently as ''by far the strongest of the young drivers''. I agree with Marko, and I believe he has potential to be a top driver and a regular winner in the right car, World Champion?, maybe.

Verstappen is head and shoulders above all of them imo. Fastest car just makes it even more unfair. 

He isn't a team player though. The slightest threat would have him playing up. 

I'm not sure Norris taking a mega contract off McLaren when he had limited other optiond can be considered 'tremendous loyalty' though. 

[CityDave94]

On 14/07/2023 at 00:10, V.Aye.R said:

Perez is a good driver but in the earlier days the Telcel sponsorship money seemed to carry him a little. 

No, I remember him at Sauber along with Kobayashi and the two of them often battled with the top teams sometimes for podiums. Perez nearly won in Malaysia having looked after his tyres, something he seemed to excel at during his career. He was very impressive and was a match for and could beat Kobayashi. Many believed him naturally quicker than 'The Kob'.

He could have ruined his own career mind, his preformances at Sauber after winning the McLaren seat for 2013 was straight out of the Pastor Maldonado handbook and his time at McLaren, well you could see he wasn't ready for a top team. Could have been over right then if Paul di Resta hadn't been let go from Force India.

 

[CityDave94]

28 minutes ago, V.Aye.R said:

Verstappen is head and shoulders above all of them imo. Fastest car just makes it even more unfair. 

He isn't a team player though. The slightest threat would have him playing up. 

I'm not sure Norris taking a mega contract off McLaren when he had limited other optiond can be considered 'tremendous loyalty' though. 

Did you know that Norris had knocked back an offer from Red Bull a couple of years ago?

[CityDave94]

Another reason for bringing in Daniel Ricciardo is to evaluate Yuki Tsunoda on how good he is coming up to the talked about Red Bull three year benchmark. They weren't getting that information with Nyck de Vries driving the other car. I believe that was one of the reasons de Vries was let go so quickly, they need to deal with the Tsunoda issue without delay on whether he has potential to be a top driver or another Pierre Gasly. With the restructuring underway and AlphaTauri changing management and rebranding next season it looked like urgency was needed.

Rumours that Honda are already pushing Aston Martin to sign a Japanese driver before 2026. Alonso's contract finishes at the end of next season. Much mystery over Lance Stroll's contract in that no one seems to know???? The Stroll's at Aston Martin has to be coming to an end soon. I can't see them taking a step back down the grid since the main purpose is to get Lance into a top team so he can win the World Championship. Nah! a couple of years and both will be off to Indycars.

btw from Crashnet.

Contracts - end of

2028 - Max Verstappen

2025 - Lando Norris

2024 - George Russell, Carlos Sainz Jr, Charles Leclerc, Sergio Perez, Alex Albon, Esteban Ocon, Pierre Gasly, Oscar Piastri, Valtteri Bottas, Fernando Alonso. Nico Hulkenberg.

2023 - Lewis Hamilton, Daniel Ricciardo, Yuki Tsunoda, Zhou Guanyu, Kevin Magnussen, Logan Sargeant.

???? - Lance Stroll

 

I'm failing to see what Lewis Hamilton is trying to do by stalling signing for next season, since he doesn't have a lot of choice. Can't imagine he is holding back for that Audi drive alongside his favourite team mate ever? Would this mean the door then opens for Lance Stroll to join Mercedes???