Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[John MacLean]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

You're right with your first point, the lockdown was to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed. But your second point? "systematic destruction of the welfare state over the course of generations"? The Welfare State, as we understand it, has only been on the go for 75 years, which could be construed as only 2 generations, but lets call it 3, so in order to have been systematically destroyed for generations, this must have been happening since the end of the first generation, 1970, coincidentally just about the time we joined the EEC. Maybe the slogan on the bus was nearer the mark than it was given credit for. 

Why was lockdown instigated elsewhere in the world? Was it to beat the virus or have the Health Services of the rest of the world also been systematically destroyed over generations? Otherwise, what was the point.

I also agree with your last paragraph. Lessons will most definitely have to be not only learned but implemented.

The term generation(s) is a bit vague and probably not that accurate in terms of my previous post.

To try and clarify my thinking a bit, the Welfare State came into being in 1948 when the then Labour government enacted many of the recommendations of the Beveridge Report. The programmes of reform that the Labour government of 1945-1950 introduced were genuinely radical. 

Sadly with the country still debt ridden after the end of the Second World War , in particular owing the USA a huge amount (the debt not being finally paid off until 2006), there wasn't the money to continue and expand these programmes. That, indirectly at least, led to a vastly reduced majority at the next Election and a subsequent removal of Labour from office in 1951. 

I'd argue the dismantling of the Welfare State began from the election of the Conservative government of 1951 right up until the current Covid crisis. Not always at the same breakneck pace certainly that we've witnessed in the last decade or so but a systematic destruction (which includes increased privatisation) all the same leading us to the position we found ourselves in March this year. A generally unhealthy population (just look at obesity levels) and a NHS that was feared wouldn't cope with the pandemic. 

I think the destruction of the welfare state and overall poor health of the country left the UK particularly vulnerable to the virus. I think that can partly be reflected in the high death rates within the UK. This is a bit of a wild generalisation that may well not stand up to closer scrutiny but the countries that have coped the best with the virus seem to have been the ones with the best overall health and/or state health provision. South Korea for example is cited as being of the healthiest nations in the world and is cited, a potential second wave notwithstanding, as one of the nations to have addressed this crisis the best. I don't think that is a coincidence.  

The USA meantime doesn't have a welfare state as we would recognise it. They seem to have been particularly badly hit. The overall poor health of their citizens a factor there as well. 

To answer your question (finally) I think Lockdown in most cases was put in place because of inadequacies in nations' health services and their perceived inability to cope. The virus, at least without an effective and widely distributed vaccine, is never going to be beaten. It's now all about how we manage to live with it, what death rates we consider "acceptable" and how we adapt our daily lives. 

I'll shut up now. 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by John MacLean

[John MacLean]

11 minutes ago, Have some faith in Magic said:

From what I heard the use of hand wash and paper towels in pubs went up dramatically in the weeks prior to lockdown and that was before the reality of hundreds of folk dying up here. 

You would think that it would keep up at those levels and hopefully increase with the hand sanitizer dispensers that will be dotted about the pubs and restaurants. 

 

...but there will always be a proportion of clatty b*****ds. 

I remember there were actual queues to wash your hands in the bogs at Tannadice when Thistle were there just before lockdown. 

[19QOS19]

I remember there were actual queues to wash your hands in the bogs at Tannadice when Thistle were there just before lockdown. 

Well they were in Dundee tbf...

 

[Forest_Fifer]

I'm pretty chill about things easing in Scotland as cases really have slowed to a trickle, but I'm worried about importing new cases from countries where cases are shooting up. USA, India etc.

The US appear to be avoiding a second wave by not doing enough to stamp out the first wave. The stats are frankly terrifying.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

You're right with your first point, the lockdown was to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed. But your second point? "systematic destruction of the welfare state over the course of generations"? The Welfare State, as we understand it, has only been on the go for 75 years, which could be construed as only 2 generations, but lets call it 3, so in order to have been systematically destroyed for generations, this must have been happening since the end of the first generation, 1970, coincidentally just about the time we joined the EEC. Maybe the slogan on the bus was nearer the mark than it was given credit for. 
Why was lockdown instigated elsewhere in the world? Was it to beat the virus or have the Health Services of the rest of the world also been systematically destroyed over generations? Otherwise, what was the point.
I also agree with your last paragraph. Lessons will most definitely have to be not only learned but implemented.

10 years of austerity and chronic real terms underfunding of the NHS combined with an aging population was always going to put pressure on hospitals. I don't think having a private care system that is not fit for purpose has helped matters either.

[Michael W]

653 new cases across the UK today - another large drop from yesterday. 

I don't want to he "that guy", but it is a little odd that there's another pretty sharp decline. Even allowing for the shenanigans with testing numbers, the amount of tests are high. There's nothing to be gained from lying about new cases so interested as to why there's the sudden drop off. 

I haven't been following how the testing data has been put together, but is there a delay in this also with previous cases being announced days after the results had been received? 

Good news, anyway. Almost half of what we were encountering last week. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Michael W

[beefybake]

3 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

I'm pretty chill about things easing in Scotland as cases really have slowed to a trickle, but I'm worried about importing new cases from countries where cases are shooting up. USA, India etc.

I'd be worried about the English invasion..., all going on their hols in Scotland.

Edited June 24, 2020 by beefybake

[Jacksgranda]

4 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

You're right with your first point, the lockdown was to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed. But your second point? "systematic destruction of the welfare state over the course of generations"? The Welfare State, as we understand it, has only been on the go for 75 years, which could be construed as only 2 generations, but lets call it 3, so in order to have been systematically destroyed for generations, this must have been happening since the end of the first generation, 1970, coincidentally just about the time we joined the EEC. Maybe the slogan on the bus was nearer the mark than it was given credit for. 
Why was lockdown instigated elsewhere in the world? Was it to beat the virus or have the Health Services of the rest of the world also been systematically destroyed over generations? Otherwise, what was the point.
I also agree with your last paragraph. Lessons will most definitely have to be not only learned but implemented.

10 years of austerity and chronic real terms underfunding of the NHS combined with an aging population was always going to put pressure on hospitals. I don't think having a private care system that is not fit for purpose has helped matters either.

I know you're from Dundee, but 10 years isn't a generation.

Despite all this austerity and cuts the NHS budget (for England) has risen by 26% since 2011. No doubt much of this is eaten up by inflation, more patients with more complex needs and more costly treatments which weren't available/possible 10 years ago. However, on the face of it the NHS has been fairly well funded. The % of the population older than 65 hasn't grown by 26% since 2011. 

The current crisis has shown we can (just about) function without all the levels of management we have, perhaps there could be savings there (not just in the NHS, either, I'm sure you could show examples of savings that could be made in teaching admin). There will never be enough money to satisfy the demands of the NHS. No doubt money could be transferred from other projects but those would only be one offs, and just because project X costs £150 million, scrapping it doesn't mean there is £150 million available. The only long term solution is tax increases.

Care homes should not be private enterprise money making machines, they should be brought back into public control. That, too, will cost money.

[Silvio Tattiescone]

 

[RH33]

4 hours ago, stumigoo said:

 

On your first paragraph. Can’t remember who it was but I watched something earlier in lockdown and the guest on the show was lambasting the “look at me during lockdown” culture of some people online, talking about the very real damage it was doing to many who feel self-conscious about the ‘effort’ they’ve been putting in during this crisis.

“Look at all the exercise I’ve done!”

“Look at all the skills I’ve learned!”

“Look at all the home learning I’m doing!”

“Look at all the activities I’ve designed for my kids!”

It’s damaging for those who feel anxious about themselves to go online and see all these show offs who claim to have been busy every minute of every day during lockdown. I’ve felt guilty plenty during this, everything from the lack of exercise, to the lack of Blue Peter-esque projects that I’ve built from scratch for our 2 year old. Reality is, much of it has been projected on to me by the things I’ve seen online, and it’s not fair on myself to do that.

 

I’m not on twitter but I had a look at the schools one and it’s basically a bunch of middle class parents showing how wonderful home schooling going by sharing videos!

I’m just surprised the neighbours haven’t called police and social work amount of telling my youngest and I are doing at each other

[peasy23]

8 hours ago, doulikefish said:

Strike 3.....Mcdowells caddy tests positive aswell so gmac is out aswell 

Make that 4, Brooks Koepka also sitting this one out after his caddy Ricky Elliott tested positive. The PGA Tour had always expected to get some positive tests, but I'm  not sure they would have thought they would get 4 in 6 days.

[peasy23]

19 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said:

 

Still got about half a pint. I'd take that at the moment.

[NotThePars]

Neil Findlay looks like he is in a permarage.

Given he (correctly) hates the majority of his colleagues I don’t doubt he is

[doulikefish]

29 minutes ago, peasy23 said:

Make that 4, Brooks Koepka also sitting this one out after his caddy Ricky Elliott tested positive. The PGA Tour had always expected to get some positive tests, but I'm  not sure they would have thought they would get 4 in 6 days.

That is a stramge one...Ricky and Brooks have been living in the same house with a chef no other contacts at each tournament.seemingly

The commisioner of the pga is flying into this weeks tournament....rumours of a cancellation 

 

Update seemingly Rivky has restested negative

Edited June 24, 2020 by doulikefish

[pandarilla]

Reading the last few posts of this thread has made me feel a little better. I've seen a few posts online from other parents showcasing all of the work their kids are doing and I feel like a shite parent.

My kids have pretty much done f**k all in the last few weeks, I've stopped checking the work they've been assigned and log them in every morning, nothing more. The first few weeks was nothing more than then being being "assigned" a website to check out, or a YouTube video to watch. They aren't interested, and I can't make them suddenly show an interest. Glad it isn't just me that's struggled with it! They have, however, learned how to change a hard drive and a laptop screen so there are some useful life skills out there. [emoji16]

Don't feel guilty - as that's not going to help.

If i could offer some advice (feel free to tell me to mind my own fucking business) or would be... whatever you get them doing, do it with them, or at least show as much genuine interest in what they're learning as you can.

Bin the school stuff if you want, and let them choose something they enjoy. But then try to check with them and see if you can help them learn it - or correct any mistakes they've made - or offer any alternative ideas. Reading stuff and understanding it is the key to pretty much every aspect of education.

Apologies again for trying to stick my nose in, it just worried me when you said you've left them to it. The most interest thing is that they're engaged in something (relatively) productive. But certainly don't beat yourself up or feel bad about what's happened so far.

[Thereisalight..]

4 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

Optomistic now about getting to Hamilton Park in August. Maybe / maybe not on the 1st, but for sure on the 28th.

I see no reason why 90% of clubs can’t  play in front of fans then. If supporters or the clubs themselves are still worried then make the fans wear a face covering

[Thereisalight..]

I just hope if there is a “spike” or “second wave” or the usual colds/flu come the Autumn, that we don’t shit the bed and lockdown again. IMO lockdown should be a one off thing that we did to *cliche alert* prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed. Now they have the correct PPE, increased numbers of ventilators and the hospital at the SEC that’s yet to see a patient, there should be no need or desire to implement another lockdown 

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, Michael W said:

653 new cases across the UK today - another large drop from yesterday. 

I don't want to he "that guy", but it is a little odd that there's another pretty sharp decline. Even allowing for the shenanigans with testing numbers, the amount of tests are high. There's nothing to be gained from lying about new cases so interested as to why there's the sudden drop off. 

I haven't been following how the testing data has been put together, but is there a delay in this also with previous cases being announced days after the results had been received? 

Good news, anyway. Almost half of what we were encountering last week. 

The weather was shit last week.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

I’m surprised that numbers continue to fall while people in the main remain at home and social distancing continues to take place.

[Todd_is_God]

46 minutes ago, Thereisalight.. said:

I see no reason why 90% of clubs can’t  play in front of fans then. If supporters or the clubs themselves are still worried then make the fans wear a face covering

Hamilton Park is a racecourse btw