Sarah Everard

[Satoshi]

8 minutes ago, hk blues said:

You're at it.

You clearly DID NOT mention it in the very 1st line - you only mention 2 factors and NOT the relevant one i.e. that his sister was semi-famous.  Only later did you acknowledge that 3rd factor.  

I am not choosing to die on any hill, I am simply stating that the three cases you have focused on were not newsworthy purely because the victims were wealthy and white (has this been confirmed?) rather because of the circumstances of their disappearance and/or death.  

It's quoted above, did you really miss this line? "A similar thing happened (around the same time I think) when the brother of a soap star was stabbed to death in London."

Not sure what else I can add to the above.

The phenomenon is also spoken about by victims families.

Consider the case of two black women murdered in a London park, according to the mother:

She said that racism ensured that the coverage of these black women's deaths was different from similar instances of stranger killings of white women.^{[5][43][44][45]} Mina Smallman maintains the police did not care about the missing sisters before the bodies were found because one was "a black woman who lives on a council estate."^[46]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Bibaa_Henry_and_Nicole_Smallman} 

But never mind, some poster by the name of 'HK Blues' thinks it doesn't exist, and the wealth and ethnicity of victims plays no part in media coverage. In explicit opposition to the thousands of scholarly articles on this subject.

[Satoshi]

3 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Going from wealthy & rich kid to “wealthier than the attackers” is a fair leap!
Juriss Kika - one of the attackers, well you’ll never guess what, he was also the son of a cab driver! 
Maybe I’m misremembering but the stabbing I remember getting the most media attention was Stephen Lawrence, not sure what criteria he fits? 
Im not saying you are completely wrong but you really couldn’t have picked a worse example to try to prove your assertion! 

Not really, it ties in clearly with Sarah Everard, Nicola Bulley and (to a lesser extent) the McCanns. These people aren't super wealthy, but they are wealthier than most victims of serious crime.

Surely you are aware why the Stephen Lawrence case is so famous? If not, have a read of it.

Do you think the phenomenon of the ideal victim exists and that wealth and ethnicity influence media coverage? I have picked many examples, posters have zeroed in on this one, but there are thousands of others I could have chosen.

Only one poster is standing by the it isn't a factor line, don't think anyone will be joining him.

 

[hk blues]

1 minute ago, Satoshi said:

It's quoted above, did you really miss this line? "A similar thing happened (around the same time I think) when the brother of a soap star was stabbed to death in London."

Not sure what else I can add to the above.

The phenomenon is also spoken about by victims families.

Consider the case of two black women murdered in a London park, according to the mother:

She said that racism ensured that the coverage of these black women's deaths was different from similar instances of stranger killings of white women.^{[5][43][44][45]} Mina Smallman maintains the police did not care about the missing sisters before the bodies were found because one was "a black woman who lives on a council estate."^[46]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Bibaa_Henry_and_Nicole_Smallman} 

But never mind, some poster by the name of 'HK Blues' thinks it doesn't exist, and the wealth and ethnicity of victims plays no part in media coverage. In explicit opposition to the thousands of scholarly articles on this subject.

I see I need to keep it simple -

Original Post  - white and wealthy 

Follow-up Post - white, wealthy with a famous sister.  

As for the last para - again, you're making stuff up.  At no time have I said wealth and ethnicity play NO part in media coverage - but that in the cases you mention they were not the only factors, and certainly not the most important.  

 

[Brother Blades]

2 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Not really, it ties in clearly with Sarah Everard, Nicola Bulley and (to a lesser extent) the McCanns. These people aren't super wealthy, but they are wealthier than most victims of serious crime.

Surely you are aware why the Stephen Lawrence case is so famous? If not, have a read of it.

Do you think the phenomenon of the ideal victim exists and that wealth and ethnicity influence media coverage? I have picked many examples, posters have zeroed in on this one, but there are thousands of others I could have chosen.

Only one poster is standing by the it isn't a factor line, don't think anyone will be joining him.

 

I’m out! 
The easiest thing to have done would be to say that “I’m wrong, picked a terrible example, I just assumed I’d be correct because of the media coverage & how I thought it linked into my narrative”

Im well aware of the circumstances of the Stephen Lawrence case & the reason it got so much (deserved) coverage, as it was entirely racially motivated, no argument had happened beforehand, it didn’t happen in the commission of another crime, it was entirely unprovoked. 
Just like Damilola Taylor got huge attention due to the young age of the victim.

I think the zeitgeist of the moment is a larger factor than wealth. 

 

[hk blues]

12 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Only one poster is standing by the it isn't a factor line, don't think anyone will be joining him.

 

 

30 minutes ago, hk blues said:

I am not choosing to die on any hill, I am simply stating that the three cases you have focused on were not newsworthy purely because the victims were wealthy and white (has this been confirmed?) rather because of the circumstances of their disappearance and/or death.  

And yet again we find you making up stuff that simply didn't happen.

The sentence above I have quoted totally contradicts your "Isn't a factor" line - the word 'purely' being the key one.

[Satoshi]

5 minutes ago, hk blues said:

I see I need to keep it simple -

Original Post  - white and wealthy 

Follow-up Post - white, wealthy with a famous sister.  

As for the last para - again, you're making stuff up.  At no time have I said wealth and ethnicity play NO part in media coverage - but that in the cases you mention they were not the only factors, and certainly not the most important.  

 

I'll quote it for the third time, it's my first line on the subject in my original post:

"A similar thing happened (around the same time I think) when the brother of a soap star was stabbed to death in London."

Of course it wasn't the only factor, it was a major factor but there are other minor factors.

Glad you finally agree that's it is factor in this case, and many others, and the best way to combat it is to point it out. You didn't like one of my examples because he was the brother of a minor soap star? Bit of a weird thing to waste so many posts on.

3 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

I’m out! 
The easiest thing to have done would be to say that “I’m wrong, picked a terrible example, I just assumed I’d be correct because of the media coverage & how I thought it linked into my narrative”

Im well aware of the circumstances of the Stephen Lawrence case & the reason it got so much (deserved) coverage, as it was entirely racially motivated, no argument had happened beforehand, it didn’t happen in the commission of another crime, it was entirely unprovoked. 
Just like Damilola Taylor got huge attention due to the young age of the victim.

I think the zeitgeist of the moment is a larger factor than wealth. 

 

It wasn't a terrible example, he clearly got far more attention than the other teenagers stabbed to death in London that year. Because he was an atypical victim, and because he represented (in the view of the media) an ideal victim. Which is my point, which I have illustrated with a number of examples.

If you're well aware of why the Stephen Lawrence case is so well known, you will know why it doesn't belong on this thread.

On zeitgeist of the moment - possibly, but there will still be a clear correlation between wealth and amount of publicity, in every country, in almost every case.

[hk blues]

2 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Glad you finally agree that's it is factor in this case, and many others, and the best way to combat it is to point it out. You didn't like one of my examples because he was the brother of a minor soap star? Bit of a weird thing to waste so many posts on.

 

[Brother Blades]

Apologies to all other thread viewers, I hadn’t linked the username to the eye bleeding takes on the TA section. I’ll not fall into the trap of quoting or debating him again. 

[hk blues]

9 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

It wasn't a terrible example, he clearly got far more attention than the other teenagers stabbed to death in London that year. Because he was an atypical victim, and because he represented (in the view of the media) an ideal victim. Which is my point, which I have illustrated with a number of examples.

Let me get this straight - white and wealthy (at least wealthier than their killers!) = newsworthy.  Black and poor = newsworthy because not white and wealthy.

Easy to see why you are a laughing stock on this forum. 

[hk blues]

1 minute ago, Brother Blades said:

Apologies to all other thread viewers, I hadn’t linked the username to the eye bleeding takes on the TA section. I’ll not fall into the trap of quoting or debating him again. 

[highlandcowden]

40 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

 

Only one poster is standing by the it isn't a factor line, don't think anyone will be joining him.

 

I don't think so ,most people just can't be arsed getting into a beyond tedious debate with you about it

[velo army]

[Satoshi]

5 hours ago, hk blues said:

Basically, you're choosing to view every single example through your prejudice.  

If we take the soap star's brother example as a case in point (I've no recollection of the case) - your wild take is that the case attracted attention solely because he was white and wealthy and NOT because his sister was a soap star. As I said, a wild take. 

 

35 minutes ago, hk blues said:

 

And yet again we find you making up stuff that simply didn't happen.

The sentence above I have quoted totally contradicts your "Isn't a factor" line - the word 'purely' being the key one.

Your first post on the subject is above. Would have been a great time to acknowledge yes ethnicity and wealth absolutely are factors, however in this case....

But you didn't.

You only acknowledged a few posts afterwards that yes of course it is a factor.

Which was my point all along.

I'm not surprised you are zeroing in on an example, cause you have nothing else to say. 

26 minutes ago, hk blues said:

I'm sure that happens to you a lot.

20 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Apologies to all other thread viewers, I hadn’t linked the username to the eye bleeding takes on the TA section. I’ll not fall into the trap of quoting or debating him again. 

Will you keep making posts after saying you are out, though?

20 minutes ago, hk blues said:

Let me get this straight - white and wealthy (at least wealthier than their killers!) = newsworthy.  Black and poor = newsworthy because not white and wealthy.

Easy to see why you are a laughing stock on this forum. 

No, that isn't correct at all.

There are very obvious reasons why the Stephen Lawrence case has a such high profile in the media.

Most deaths of poor and ethnic minority people have virtually no profile.

It is a well known phenomenon, commented on by police, victims and academics. It is happening in this case, with an ideal victim, which is why I have pointed out.

What on earth your point is - I don't know, and I'm beginning to suspect you don't either.

10 minutes ago, highlandcowden said:

I don't think so ,most people just can't be arsed getting into a beyond tedious debate with you about it

I make sure I have the facts on my side before posting. It makes it a lot easier.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Satoshi

[coprolite]

Newspapers like photogenic victims. That's the main criterion. 

Editors are probably going to subconsciously select stories about people they empathise with and they think their readership will too, so middle class white people will be reported more and more sympathetically. I doubt it's a conscious decision. 

I think there's a point in the rambling, somewhere. 

[Satoshi]

1 minute ago, coprolite said:

Newspapers like photogenic victims. That's the main criterion. 

Editors are probably going to subconsciously select stories about people they empathise with and they think their readership will too, so middle class white people will be reported more and more sympathetically. I doubt it's a conscious decision. 

I think there's a point in the rambling, somewhere. 

Of course this is the case.

Absolutely wild that anyone seeks to dispute it. But I think they will give up on that pretty quickly. 

Probably shouldn't have gone into all the detail I did, should pay more attention to the capabilities and attention spans of some others on this forum. 

[hk blues]

1 minute ago, coprolite said:

Newspapers like photogenic victims. That's the main criterion. 

Editors are probably going to subconsciously select stories about people they empathise with and they think their readership will too, so middle class white people will be reported more and more sympathetically. I doubt it's a conscious decision. 

I think there's a point in the rambling, somewhere. 

You see, nobody is disputing much, if any of that.  What is being disputed is the extent to which it is true i.e. the suggestion that that is the only factor and the circumstances around certain high-profile cases are irrelevant.  

 

[highlandcowden]

11 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

 

Probably shouldn't have gone into all the detail I did, should pay more attention to the capabilities and attention spans of some others on this forum. 

Ah,the "I'm a genius, everyone else is a half wit"arguement.

Checkmate you,I think

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Ideal victim is definitely a thing, remember the case of Jodie Chesney a 16 year old white girl stabbed to death in a park around 2018? the killer was ultimately arrested and convicted a year later. anyway, at first it was reported that she was smoking cannabis ( clearly does not in any way rationalize her murder in what was quite likely an unprovoked attack, and f**k me who ever heard of a teenager smoking dope!)  The narrative was quickly changed from getting stoned to "relaxing in a park with friends"  had her A levels coming up and her whole life ahead of her etc etc, all true of course, 

compare to other stories where the alleged criminality of the victim is front and center of the whole story, inviting the usual comments of " no smoke without fire & fly with the crows get shot with the crows " and so on

[throbber]

Would Wayne Couzens have pleaded guilty to these charges just to land his ex colleagues in it for not suspending him at  the time of the murder? Or is that just being silly?

[dundeefc1783]

4 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

Going from wealthy & rich kid to “wealthier than the attackers” is a fair leap!
 

Aye but mind the majority of us on this Scottish football forum are middle class.