Heads Gone - The Peppino Impastato Memorial Thread

[Jacksgranda]

7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

When he originally used it he was being flippant about Fifers as Falkirk fans tend to do on a football thread. It was leapt upon by a Hamilton fan who shrieked "RACIST!". Several posters weren't sure whether he meant the "F" word or the "T" word, a calm explanation of why t**k is a racial slur that shouldn't be used would likely have elicited a calmer response from @NavyBlueArmy1876.

When I was growing up, calling someone  (usually a child) a wee t****r was a term of affection, but calling someone a t**k was deragatory.

[GHF-23]

Just now, accies1874 said:

I find that very hard to believe given their subsequent post on this thread and the reaction from them and other Falkirk fans to a calm explanation from another poster last year. 

That's what I was just going to say. I don't know about the poster in question being here but this conversation has been had regularly since I've posted on here so despite the please be nice when telling people that they can't use slurs mewling from some quarters I can understand why people may not have that patience on here tbh. 

[johnnydun]

12 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Do you think Irish Travellers mostly have Romani heritage or are they a distinct group?

They mixed quite frequently. Hence why I said most Travellers have Romani ancestry.

[velo army]

1 hour ago, johnnydun said:

Yes, Romani Gypsies are a race. Most Travellers have in some way Romani Gypsy ancestry. They started in India, then travelled to Egypt, then onto Europe. It was the time in Egypt that gave them the 'Gypsy' name.

This isn't strictly true. We studied them a bit in anthropology (are they a race or a class?). Travellers would go from town to town (not Romani either, "gypsies" or travellers came from all over) and created the "Egyptian" story as it made them sound more exotic.

They're survivors of feudalism, hence the very different morality they have around child rearing, property and means of exchange. Hence also the centuries long persecution. 

 

[johnnydun]

Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers are legally recognised as ethnic groups, and protected from discrimination by the Race Relations Act (1976, amended 2000) and the Human Rights Act (1998).

[GNU_Linux]

Thoughts on this topic @DouglasRoss?

[SlipperyP]

https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/features/it-time-scottish-society-re-thought-its-language-use-0

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, johnnydun said:

Yes, Romani Gypsies are a race. Most Travellers have in some way Romani Gypsy ancestry. They started in India, then travelled to Egypt, then onto Europe. It was the time in Egypt that gave them the 'Gypsy' name.

Some people think the Egyptian connection was a mistake or slur from Europeans when Romani arrived from the East rather than the South.

Quote

Historical records show that the Roma were initially welcomed with mixed feelings in most of the European kingdoms and became known as “Egyptians” and locally derived terms, such as ‘astigani’, ‘tsigane’ and ‘gitanos’, leading to misconceptions regarding the origins of the population.

I don't pretend to understand much of the genetic terminology in this link.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9690732/

[carpetmonster]

50 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Thoughts on this topic @DouglasRoss?

 

[ICTChris]

I had thought that genetic testing had showed that Roma people originated from India.  The stereotypical portrayal of Roma are that they have dark skin and features - there was a highly publicised case a few years ago when a Roma family had a child taken from them by social services because the kid had blonde hair whereas everyone in the rest of the group were darker.  IIRC, they were minding the kid for a family friend.

There are also groups of travellers that aren't Roma - the Highland travellers are different as are the Irish Travellers.  I'm sure someone did a DNA analysis of the Irish travelers and found that they are similar but distinct from the Irish population.  Something happened 500-1000 years ago that lead the people we now know as Irish Travellers to separate themselves from Irish society and it's pretty much stayed in place ever since.  If anyone has spent any time in Ireland, the prejudice against travellers is very widespread.

Not sure if anyone has done analysis on Highland travellers to see if they are similar, would be interesting to find out.

[ICTChris]

Some Googling tells me

https://www.thejournal.ie/traveller-community-study-rcsi-3231070-Feb2017/

There's also ongoing work at the University of Edinburgh to do something similar for Scottish travellers.

https://traveller-genes.ed.ac.uk/take-part/what-involved

 

[TxRover]

9 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I had thought that genetic testing had showed that Roma people originated from India.

That's the gist of what's @welshbairn's linked paper says. 

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I had thought that genetic testing had showed that Roma people originated from India.  The stereotypical portrayal of Roma are that they have dark skin and features - there was a highly publicised case a few years ago when a Roma family had a child taken from them by social services because the kid had blonde hair whereas everyone in the rest of the group were darker.  IIRC, they were minding the kid for a family friend.

There are also groups of travellers that aren't Roma - the Highland travellers are different as are the Irish Travellers.  I'm sure someone did a DNA analysis of the Irish travelers and found that they are similar but distinct from the Irish population.  Something happened 500-1000 years ago that lead the people we now know as Irish Travellers to separate themselves from Irish society and it's pretty much stayed in place ever since.  If anyone has spent any time in Ireland, the prejudice against travellers is very widespread.

Not sure if anyone has done analysis on Highland travellers to see if they are similar, would be interesting to find out.

I don't think stereotypes are very useful after a thousand years of migration and settlement. It's like expecting every Jew to have a hooked nose and every Highlander to be stocky with red hair.

[invergowrie arab]

Getting into semantics to downplay bigotry is straight out of the far right handbook so even if I was genuinely curious I'd probably just Google it on the off chance anyone should perceive that's what I was doing.

[BFTD]

1 minute ago, invergowrie arab said:

Getting into semantics to downplay bigotry is straight out of the far right handbook so even if I was genuinely curious I'd probably just Google it on the off chance anyone should perceive that's what I was doing.

Yeah, I doubt it was intended, but any mention of "are <x> a race?" immediately calls to mind "Muslim ain't a race" as the world's worst trump card.

[MazzyStar]

This thread has went a bit eugenics-y. 

[invergowrie arab]

2 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Yeah, I doubt it was intended, but any mention of "are <x> a race?" immediately calls to mind "Muslim ain't a race" as the world's worst trump card.

I dunno, they were some very nasty looking quotation marks.

[BFTD]

9 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

I dunno, they were some very nasty looking quotation marks.

Disgraceful punctuation prejudice. You'll be badmouthing the cedilla next for being a bottom feeder.

[strichener]

19 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

Getting into semantics to downplay bigotry is straight out of the far right handbook so even if I was genuinely curious I'd probably just Google it on the off chance anyone should perceive that's what I was doing.

And yet it is the semantics of particular words that is leading the conversation. 

 

[carpetmonster]

43 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I don't think stereotypes are very useful after a thousand years of migration and settlement. It's like expecting every Jew to have a hooked nose and every Highlander to be stocky with red hair.

Hot Shot Hamish had led me to believe they'd be bronzed Adonises in crop tops, and the reality on my first trip past Perth was somewhat disappointing.