European Super League.

[Michael W]

1 hour ago, charger29 said:

I think The Times said this is already in the works. Soft cap of 55% of turnover for wages and net transfer spend.

A super league may happen at some point relatively soon but I don't see it in the next 5 years or so.

If only the same people proposing this didn't repeatedly block the idea when it was originally mooted... 

[HalfCutNinja]

Does anyone remember a cartoon in the mid 80's with a global football league? Teams going around the world competing against the best teams from every continent. That would be amazing. Boca Juniors and some mad Asian team and shit. 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

1 minute ago, G51 said:

Yeah this is pretty much it. Which then leaves us with a difficult conversation to have: what is the future for every other league not good enough to be a part of the ESL?

I suspect we eventually become college football to the ESL's NFL (but without the dedicated draft pathway): seen as the more traditional, purer form of the sport with all the history, but with none of the good players. The second a player becomes good enough for the ESL, he jumps ship and goes.

You might say it's not all that different from the current situation we find ourselves in.

I mean Scottish football already is that and has been for over a decade.

Larrson and Laudrup were the last two really world class players to play in Scotland at their peak. It is all about developing players, keeping a standard and having a pathway to the next step up the ladder.

For example Ryan Kent isn't at Rangers for the love of the club. It is all about the opportunities after Rangers. He knows if he does really well he is going to be noticed and might get a move to a mid table EPL side and from there he can move up to bigger clubs.

Even now in the EPL there isn't much competition for signings between Big Six and not big six clubs.

[Jimi Shandrix]

No tears for UEFA here. They basically kickstarted this when they turned the tremendous European Cup into the shite Champions League. Football at this level has been fucked for years. 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

1 minute ago, HalfCutNinja said:

Does anyone remember a cartoon in the mid 80's with a global football league? Teams going around the world competing against the best teams from every continent. That would be amazing. Boca Juniors and some mad Asian team and shit. 

The Hurricanes? Aye they had a Scottish manager.

[HalfCutNinja]

2 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The Hurricanes? Aye they had a Scottish manager.

That was it, though wiki says it started in 1993. I feel like it was earlier than that.  Class anyway.

[Left Back]

10 minutes ago, G51 said:

Because by (eventually) leaving their domestic leagues and continental competitions, they will cause the value of the domestic TV deals (plus UEFA's CL TV deal) to completely and utterly implode. No clubs will be able to match their spending power then, so they will *effectively* operate as a cartel by imposing a salary cap. This is what the NFL has done, and when it's been challenged in court the judges have said "There's nothing stopping someone from forming a rival league". Guess what? People have tried that, lots of times! They've all failed because the best players have no incentive to join! So the NFL, despite not violating antitrust rules, is an effective monopoly on pro football.

Yeah this is pretty much it. Which then leaves us with a difficult conversation to have: what is the future for every other league not good enough to be a part of the ESL?

I suspect we eventually become college football to the ESL's NFL (but without the dedicated draft pathway): seen as the more traditional, purer form of the sport with all the history, but with none of the good players. The second a player becomes good enough for the ESL, he jumps ship and goes.

You might say it's not all that different from the current situation we find ourselves in.

 

10 minutes ago, G51 said:

Because by (eventually) leaving their domestic leagues and continental competitions, they will cause the value of the domestic TV deals (plus UEFA's CL TV deal) to completely and utterly implode. No clubs will be able to match their spending power then, so they will *effectively* operate as a cartel by imposing a salary cap. This is what the NFL has done, and when it's been challenged in court the judges have said "There's nothing stopping someone from forming a rival league". Guess what? People have tried that, lots of times! They've all failed because the best players have no incentive to join! So the NFL, despite not violating antitrust rules, is an effective monopoly on pro football.

Yeah this is pretty much it. Which then leaves us with a difficult conversation to have: what is the future for every other league not good enough to be a part of the ESL?

I suspect we eventually become college football to the ESL's NFL (but without the dedicated draft pathway): seen as the more traditional, purer form of the sport with all the history, but with none of the good players. The second a player becomes good enough for the ESL, he jumps ship and goes.

You might say it's not all that different from the current situation we find ourselves in.

You keep thinking this is America.  It isn’t.  There was nothing stopping people writing software to rival Microsofts.  No-one did but the European courts still booted them all round the continent and forced them to change their operating model.

[David W]

1 minute ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The Hurricanes? Aye they had a Scottish manager.

Jock Stone  

They had a Brazilian player who had a pet monkey and played with no shoes, and a pair of Germans called the Beethovens. Not sure it'd make it past OFCOM nowadays. 

[Monkey Tennis]

Even the identity of this 'big six' in England is hubris ridden nonsense.

Five of them cover just two cities.  Chelsea and Man City spent time as yoyo clubs, but overseas people looking for toys have elevated them.

It's probably just a bargaining chip to make UEFA bend yet further, but it's also just a logical extension of a lengthy journey.   Football allowed itself to be driven by capitalism in its most ruthless and bloody form, while fans largely acquiesced.  Here we are.

It's probably really not to be welcomed.  Some of those who stand to be shafted by it, however, deserve to be.

[G51]

1 minute ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

I mean Scottish football already is that and has been for over a decade.

Larrson and Laudrup were the last two really world class players to play in Scotland at their peak. It is all about developing players, keeping a standard and having a pathway to the next step up the ladder.

For example Ryan Kent isn't at Rangers for the love of the club. It is all about the opportunities after Rangers. He knows if he does really well he is going to be noticed and might get a move to a mid table EPL side and from there he can move up to bigger clubs.

Even now in the EPL there isn't much competition for signings between Big Six and not big six clubs.

Aye. Celtic and Rangers have been aware for years now that the way to survive is to produce a player good enough to move to England. Both clubs have been extremely open about it. The minute a top-six English side comes in with a bid for a player, he's gone.

It will mean changes for us, but it probably doesn't really change the quality of player we see in Scotland. It might mean the Old Firm have to cut their budgets, because if the UEFA TV deal loses value, then a huge part of the OF's income is lost. That's probably a good thing for Scottish football overall, because anything that brings the OF closer to the pack is better for the league.

The negatives are that this could end up changing football fandom forever. Kids might grow up with a Scottish team and an ESL team, the same way Americans have a college team and a pro team. I dunno. It's kinda hard to forecast it at this point.

 

[jamamafegan]

The way the game has gone it was only a matter of time until this shit happened. European footballs elite competition is already fucked when you have teams who finished 4th or even 5th in their league getting into the Champions League. These clubs have now made so much money that every season it’s more or less the same clubs playing each other every season. It’s absolutely shite, totally boring. I’m not interested in watching Real Madrid play Liverpool or Chelsea play Bayern Munich anymore. It was more exciting when these teams hadn’t met each other in decades, now it seems to happen on a regular basis.

The old European Cup format should never have been changed to the Champions League. Now there is probably no going back because the Champions League has created a collection of monsters.

[Left Back]

7 minutes ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

No tears for UEFA here. They basically kickstarted this when they turned the tremendous European Cup into the shite Champions League. Football at this level has been fucked for years. 

Did this not happen at about the same time the Premier League was formed down south at the behest of BSkyB or whatever it was called back then?  Not sure which event was worse for football tbh.

[G51]

4 minutes ago, Left Back said:

 

You keep thinking this is America.  It isn’t.  There was nothing stopping people writing software to rival Microsofts.  No-one did but the European courts still booted them all round the continent and forced them to change their operating model.

I'm not really following your argument here. Loads of people tried to sell an OS and they all failed. Microsoft is now the substantial market leader in this area and nobody will ever be able to rival it. If the ECJ booted them round the continent, it didn't affect them very much.

The idea that European capitalism is different than American capitalism is very sweet though.

[jagfox]

It'll be a pain in the arse getting from the leafy west end of Glasgow to nip over to Paris or Turin every other Wednesday night, so on that score I'm out! How many cans even is that journey?

Edited April 18, 2021 by jagfox BLM

[Monkey Tennis]

11 minutes ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

No tears for UEFA here. They basically kickstarted this when they turned the tremendous European Cup into the shite Champions League. Football at this level has been fucked for years. 

I agree.

However, UEFA were prepared to butcher their tournaments, because not doing so would have resulted in a breakaway back then.  

Man City sure as Hell wouldn't have featured then though.  A few years after the CL launched they wound up in the 3rd tier.

[Jambomo]

I wonder if this will end up with a ton of owners like Mike Ashley, who don’t give a f**k about how the team is performing on the pitch as long as they are in the league and raking in the money for them to take out of the club? 

[jagfox]

5 minutes ago, G51 said:

Aye. Celtic and Rangers have been aware for years now that the way to survive is to produce a player good enough to move to England. Both clubs have been extremely open about it. The minute a top-six English side comes in with a bid for a player, he's gone.

It will mean changes for us, but it probably doesn't really change the quality of player we see in Scotland. It might mean the Old Firm have to cut their budgets, because if the UEFA TV deal loses value, then a huge part of the OF's income is lost. That's probably a good thing for Scottish football overall, because anything that brings the OF closer to the pack is better for the league.

The negatives are that this could end up changing football fandom forever. Kids might grow up with a Scottish team and an ESL team, the same way Americans have a college team and a pro team. I dunno. It's kinda hard to forecast it at this point.

 

Rarely sell direct to one of the top 6. Usually spend time at one of the remaining 14 and if it works out move up the table. Which works too, especially if there is a sell on clause.

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, G51 said:

I'm not really following your argument here. Loads of people tried to sell an OS and they all failed. Microsoft is now the substantial market leader in this area and nobody will ever be able to rival it. If the ECJ booted them round the continent, it didn't affect them very much.

The idea that European capitalism is different than American capitalism is very sweet though.

It wasn’t about the OS and Microsoft isn’t the dominant player in the areas the EU booted them about.  I’m not going to get into a discussion about EU antitrust on a football forum especially with someone that has no knowledge of the topic.

[G51]

1 minute ago, jagfox BLM said:

Rarely sell direct to one of the top 6. Usually spend time at one of the remaining 14 and if it works out move up the table. Which works too, especially if there is a sell on clause.

Yeah, that's true. Either way, Scottish football has known it's place in the food chain for a while. Question is, will there be any other impact for us? Will players still see the smouldering ruins of the EPL as a stepping stone? Who knows.

[G51]

3 minutes ago, Left Back said:

It wasn’t about the OS and Microsoft isn’t the dominant player in the areas the EU booted them about.  I’m not going to get into a discussion about EU antitrust on a football forum especially with someone that has no knowledge of the topic.

I can't say I'm overly familiar with the history of Microsoft's antitrust litigation with the European Commission, no.

But the idea that the Commission would step in to stop an ESL on antitrust grounds is fanciful at best. There is a long history of sports leagues being given exemptions to antitrust laws when they need it, and I don't see any reason why the ESL would be different. It will be popular and rich enough to buy the influence it needs to buy.