Scotland v Ukraine

[Binos]

12 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

Agree.

I would also agree that countries should have sporting sanctions applied for political actions as part of a suite of sanctions.

The problem is you probably just end up reinforcing unequal power structures and relative morality eg easy to ban DR Congo from AFCON but England were never going to be banned from Euro 2004 for the Iraq invasion. 

I would have been quite happy for England to banned 

[Sugar_Army]

30 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

It's an interesting wee sub plot in the history of football administration if you are sad enough to be into that sort of thing.

Stanley Rous' lobbying for South Africa and Rhodesia sowed the seeds for his eventual defeat to Havalange.

Quite a few years back when England got their knickers in a twist when they thought they were a shoo-in for their World Cup bid, there was a an English South American football journalist on the radio. 

He said England still did not realise how much anti-english feeling was still held in various football federations due to a mix of historical colonialism, arrogance and white prejudice as well as how Rous had been at the forefront of this in a footballing sense. He said they had long memories 

He mentioned how when Rous was in charge his bias showed, adding to the perception that racial bias was endemic in the tournament and gave examples of how most of the referees in the 66 world cup were white,  that Pele was allowed to be kicked off the pitch and England being allowed to play all their games at Wembley.

He said that until England realised this and got away from the mentality that football was now a world game and not simply a case of the 'Home of Football" allowing others to join in their wee game, then they were unlikely to get a successful world cup bid.

[invergowrie arab]

6 minutes ago, Sugar_Army said:

Quite a few years back when England got their knickers in a twist when they thought they were a shoo-in for their World Cup bid, there was a an English South American football journalist on the radio. 

He said England still did not realise how much anti-english feeling was still held in various football federations due to a mix of historical colonialism, arrogance and white prejudice as well as how Rous had been at the forefront of this in a footballing sense. He said they had long memories 

He mentioned how when Rous was in charge his bias showed, adding to the perception that racial bias was endemic in the tournament and gave examples of how most of the referees in the 66 world cup were white,  that Pele was allowed to be kicked off the pitch and England being allowed to play all their games at Wembley.

He said that until England realised this and got away from the mentality that football was now a world game and not simply a case of the 'Home of Football" allowing others to join in their wee game, then they were unlikely to get a successful world cup bid.

That or up their bribe game.

United Passions is one of the most bizarre messes of a film ever made but hugely instructive as to how FIFA view the English - exactly as you describe above.

Havalange stirred all of this up as he toured the world lobbying the smaller nations and telling them that under his rule FIFA would be for the nations in Africa, Asia and Central America and he would overturn the decades of imperialism. 

Its a Tammany Hall style of politics that endures to this day. 

[Donathan]

3 hours ago, Clown Job said:

Assuming anyone of them would want to play 

They’ll have family and friends in Ukraine, possibly laying down their lives as we speak. 
 

Will be keeping an eye to see which of them are playing for their clubs at the moment. If they are then no reason to think they wouldn’t be keen to make the trip to Glasgow. 

38 minutes ago, Binos said:

I would have been quite happy for England to banned 

Would you also have been happy with Scotland being banned, had we qualified? 

[Binos]

33 minutes ago, Sugar_Army said:

Quite a few years back when England got their knickers in a twist when they thought they were a shoo-in for their World Cup bid, there was a an English South American football journalist on the radio. 

He said England still did not realise how much anti-english feeling was still held in various football federations due to a mix of historical colonialism, arrogance and white prejudice as well as how Rous had been at the forefront of this in a footballing sense. He said they had long memories 

He mentioned how when Rous was in charge his bias showed, adding to the perception that racial bias was endemic in the tournament and gave examples of how most of the referees in the 66 world cup were white,  that Pele was allowed to be kicked off the pitch and England being allowed to play all their games at Wembley.

He said that until England realised this and got away from the mentality that football was now a world game and not simply a case of the 'Home of Football" allowing others to join in their wee game, then they were unlikely to get a successful world cup bid.

And they hadn't bribed enough people 

[Binos]

21 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

That or up their bribe game.

United Passions is one of the most bizarre messes of a film ever made but hugely instructive as to how FIFA view the English - exactly as you describe above.

Havalange stirred all of this up as he toured the world lobbying the smaller nations and telling them that under his rule FIFA would be for the nations in Africa, Asia and Central America and he would overturn the decades of imperialism. 

Its a Tammany Hall style of politics that endures to this day. 

Havalange one of the most corrupt figures in the history of the game 

[roman_bairn]

Don’t know how others feel but much as I want to see Scotland at a World Cup again, I can’t help feel we shouldn’t be playing this match at all......

[Ayr23]

Don’t know how others feel but much as I want to see Scotland at a World Cup again, I can’t help feel we shouldn’t be playing this match at all......

I think it will be a weird atmosphere anyway.

[Merkie84]

8 hours ago, roman_bairn said:

Don’t know how others feel but much as I want to see Scotland at a World Cup again, I can’t help feel we shouldn’t be playing this match at all......

Similar feeling. 
 

After the last Scottish game, this playoff was literally the most I have been looking forward to a Scotland game in decades. 
 

Under normal circumstances, this game would have been huge, and the build up tremendous. I think the atmosphere on match day would have been something special. 
 

Now, football seems so trivial compared to what the Ukrainians are going through. 
 

However , I think it should be played, even if they have a weakened team.
Russia wants to wipe out Ukraine as an independent nation, we shouldn’t deny them what may be the last chance to represent their country on the international stage. 
Sport can be a powerful symbol

[Satoshi]

It was on the world football phone in recently the notion that England are not successful at winning World Cups because they aren't good enough at bribery - this laughable, obscenely arrogant perspective should give them a clear insight but sadly it does not. 

As it happens, the mayor of London Boris Johnson (whatever happened to him) gave Blatter free Olympic tickets and free accom which he then revoked when they failed to win their 2018 bid. Which definitely wasn't a bribe. And that was at a time that UK politics was being dogged by clear and obvious accusations of corruption (which still exist and are just off the front pages).

The poster above who mentioned how this reinforces existing power structures, for me there is no doubt that all home nations should have been banned during the Iraq war (and the London Olympics and Glasgow and Manchester commonwealth games boycotted). It didn't happen, but it definitely should have (the USA as well of course).

[cyderspaceman]

On 25/02/2022 at 11:54, kennie makevin said:

And ffs, please please please don't boo their national anthem.....

I thought we only booed  "our"  national anthem...

but I haven't attended a Scotland game in over 20 years.

[craigkillie]

It was on the world football phone in recently the notion that England are not successful at winning World Cups because they aren't good enough at bribery - this laughable, obscenely arrogant perspective should give them a clear insight but sadly it does not. 
As it happens, the mayor of London Boris Johnson (whatever happened to him) gave Blatter free Olympic tickets and free accom which he then revoked when they failed to win their 2018 bid. Which definitely wasn't a bribe. And that was at a time that UK politics was being dogged by clear and obvious accusations of corruption (which still exist and are just off the front pages).
The poster above who mentioned how this reinforces existing power structures, for me there is no doubt that all home nations should have been banned during the Iraq war (and the London Olympics and Glasgow and Manchester commonwealth games boycotted). It didn't happen, but it definitely should have (the USA as well of course).

This is absolutely true though. They did attempt to bribe people in lots of different ways to get the World Cup, but they bribed a lot less than Russia and therefore lost out.

This notion that they didn't get it because nobody likes them as a country can be very easily disproved by the fact that two of the last three World Cups awarded have gone to the highly popular Russia and USA.

[forameus]

I did love the haughty reactions after they lost the bid.  Talking about how unfair it all was that the process was rife with bribes.  Then in the same breath, withdrawing the relatively paltry bribes gifts they themselves had offered in a huff.  The belief that they were somehow a pure bid was laughable. And that's not just because it's England - if this 2028 bid goes ahead, we'll probably be involved in giving "gifts" too.  It's an unfortunate part of it.

[Binos]

4 hours ago, Satoshi said:

It was on the world football phone in recently the notion that England are not successful at winning World Cups because they aren't good enough at bribery - this laughable, obscenely arrogant perspective should give them a clear insight but sadly it does not. 

As it happens, the mayor of London Boris Johnson (whatever happened to him) gave Blatter free Olympic tickets and free accom which he then revoked when they failed to win their 2018 bid. Which definitely wasn't a bribe. And that was at a time that UK politics was being dogged by clear and obvious accusations of corruption (which still exist and are just off the front pages).

The poster above who mentioned how this reinforces existing power structures, for me there is no doubt that all home nations should have been banned during the Iraq war (and the London Olympics and Glasgow and Manchester commonwealth games boycotted). It didn't happen, but it definitely should have (the USA as well of course).

You're aware there's about to be a world cup in Qatar and previous one was in Russia 

[John Lambies Doos]

I thought we only booed  "our"  national anthem...
but I haven't attended a Scotland game in over 20 years.

Our national anthem is chronic, real wee man syndrome song.

[BFTD]

17 hours ago, roman_bairn said:

Don’t know how others feel but much as I want to see Scotland at a World Cup again, I can’t help feel we shouldn’t be playing this match at all......

Well, it's just all a bit meaningless, isn't it. Those lads have far more important things to be worrying about.

More concerned that Russia gets punted TBH.

[Stellaboz]

The good thing is that if we lose, we'll all be behind Ukraine against the scummy Austrians or the sheep bothering Welsh.

[mid-table]

This game has to go ahead if at all possible, even if it's an under strength team from Ukraine.

Contributing to a war effort is about more than just fighting with a gun on the streets.

By representing your country you are giving it a platform on the world stage, reminding those at home why they are doing this, giving a couple of hours of respite from everything else that's going on, and hopefully seeing an amazing display of solidarity from 50,000 citizens of another country.

The flip side of Ukraine not being seen in events like these is far more damaging.

[2426255]

18 minutes ago, mid-table said:

This game has to go ahead if at all possible, even if it's an under strength team from Ukraine.

Contributing to a war effort is about more than just fighting with a gun on the streets.

By representing your country you are giving it a platform on the world stage, reminding those at home why they are doing this, giving a couple of hours of respite from everything else that's going on, and hopefully seeing an amazing display of solidarity from 50,000 citizens of another country.

The flip side of Ukraine not being seen in events like these is far more damaging.

Aren't all the Ukrainian footballers returning to fight for their country? I just assumed that's why Yarmola had been given compassionate leave.

Edited February 27, 2022 by 2426255

[mid-table]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Aren't all the Ukrainian footballers returning to fight for their country? I just assumed that's why Yarmola had been given compassionate leave.

No, there is a mandate that men aged 18-60 in Ukraine cannot leave Ukraine, but they can travel within the country for example from Kyiv to Lviv in the west, and they are not currently obligated to conscript.

There is nothing about ex-pats being forced to return to Ukraine. I imagine they could if they want, but I imagine their clubs would not be happy about it.