Nithsdale Wanderer Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 20 hours ago, queenslad said: s MB being a defender an issue? All you hear from him his about organisation about not conceding a goal, never anything about trying to go forward, get into opposition half and have attempts on goal. How good are we at set plays - free kirks in and around the box and corners? Does McKay not have a good long throw? Do we practice these parts of the game or is it all about positional play in stopping opponents? Do we have a forward coach? That's a good point. I can't recall him commenting much on forward play. Of course, Managers will tell you that the foundation for winning games is not conceding - not very good at that either - but that needs to be allied with a ' game plan ' for creating chances too. We have creative players that seem stifled , even in our own league. Regarding strikers coach, Derek Lyle as Player / Coach for remainder of season - at least - would be ideal. He is very good with younger players from what I have heard. A bit like the Cup - Tie, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by being more expansive. Let's go 2 up front, especially at Home. Lyle and Reilly together would score more goals than any other current option we have ! Usually, I don't agree with Boards interfering in playing matters but I think they should at this time and tell the Manager to provide a more entertaining approach to try and arrest decline in attendances. If Bartley doesn't like it then he can consider his position. Win/Win if he goes of his own accord. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 hours ago, Katboy said: Once we went a goal down we should have opened up a bit more and tried to get back in to the tie. A continuation of Plan A was never going to achieve that. At least trying to make the keeper work is a reasonable expectation. That's what's especially galling. You could make a case at 0-0 - a pretty flimsy one in truth - for trying to hang on and nick something, or somehow squeak all the way through to penalties. To keep playing that way once behind, however, is nuts. He mentions changing things in his interview, but 2 subs got introduced just as we were entering stoppage time. Once more, I think the ultimate aim on Saturday was to avoid getting a heavy defeat at all costs. Even in a Cup-tie, It's how he defines success. I'm fed up of him. He has an obligation to have his side attempt to offer more. Nobody is furious that we got eliminated, but people have a right to expect the side to show more attacking ambition. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bod Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 15 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: That's what's especially galling. You could make a case at 0-0 - a pretty flimsy one in truth - for trying to hang on and nick something, or somehow squeak all the way through to penalties. To keep playing that way once behind, however, is nuts. He mentions changing things in his interview, but 2 subs got introduced just as we were entering stoppage time. Once more, I think the ultimate aim on Saturday was to avoid getting a heavy defeat at all costs. Even in a Cup-tie, It's how he defines success. I'm fed up of him. He has an obligation to have his side attempt to offer more. Nobody is furious that we got eliminated, but people have a right to expect the side to show more attacking ambition. Not the first time this has happened( Hamilton), totally bazaar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Blue Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 22 hours ago, queenslad said: Is MB being a defender an issue? All you hear from him his about organisation about not conceding a goal, never anything about trying to go forward, get into opposition half and have attempts on goal. 2 hours ago, Nithsdale Wanderer said: That's a good point. I can't recall him commenting much on forward play ... ... Usually, I don't agree with Boards interfering in playing matters but I think they should at this time and tell the Manager to provide a more entertaining approach to try and arrest decline in attendances. If Bartley doesn't like it then he can consider his position. Win/Win if he goes of his own accord. Yep, good points there made by @queenslad and @Nithsdale Wanderer. It's human nature (we all do it, myself included) when under stress to retreat back to the safety of our own particular zone of comfort, and so it's probably no surprise that Marvin focuses a lot on defence and the defensive side of midfield work. Equally, with a rookie manager, you'd think that Murray should be stepping forwards to try to help him balance that side of the equation with the creative/forward thinking requirements. Maybe that does happen but Marvin's not a great listener - I don't know, so could be doing him a dis-service there. Also, I'd be bloody amazed if the BOD haven't had more than a word in Marvin's ear over the past few weeks to highlight that the negative approach to games is having a downwards impact on attendances and hence our financial situation. These sort of discussions will always be part and parcel of a BOD/manager relationship. I'm sure they're rarely easy discussions, but every manager has to expect that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19QOS19 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said: Nobody is furious that we got eliminated, but people have a right to expect the side to show more attacking ambition. So much this. And those of us who highlighted this after the St Mirren game were criticised for being negative. I'm envious there are folk in our support who can be so blinkered. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubber_duck Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Thinking back to when Bartley first took on the job after Gibson the football was a (slightly) better watch. Albeit I only seen half the home games in the latter half of last season, so I’ll agreeably be corrected. New manager bounce? Or were the players a bit more attack-minded and Bartley tempered that with his defensive mind-set to (relative) success? Brydon was certainly a key addition. But now, given the opportunity to put a proper stamp on things the Bartley way, it’s all went...well…wrong (so far). His rookie-ness there all to see. The recent defensively minded, damage limitation exercises are an appalling watch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rjc-1988 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 4 hours ago, Katboy said: I too was at the St Mirren game, and agree with the points that you have made. Taken in isolation a narrow defeat away to opponents 2 leagues above us is not a terrible result. The game plan may have been understandable had we been playing Celtic at Parkhead. However St Mirren although decent are hardly at Celtics level, and were very much there to be got at. Once we went a goal down we should have opened up a bit more and tried to get back in to the tie. A continuation of Plan A was never going to achieve that. At least trying to make the keeper work is a reasonable expectation. I wasn't at the Motherwell game due to work commitments. Annan away we were ok for the 1st half then completely fell out of it 2nd half. Montrose away was a decent performance. Sadly performances of this nature are in the minority, with utter dross being the normal. I see it as a sad indictment of how far we have declined when not having a shot on target (or a shot at all) is seen by some to be acceptable. I agree fully. Some fans will seemingly accept almost anything so long as the result is close and the players have worked hard. Falkirk away was dire in the sense that the Manager had created a really negative mindset for the players and despite going a goal down nothing changed. There was no urgency, no appetite to get players further forward, just more of the same. Trying to keep the score down presumably for his own personal agenda. I wasn’t at St Mirren (out of the country) but I suspect it was a carbon copy of the Falkirk game. Crazy in a cup tie where the deficit is largely irrelevant. 0-1 with 20 minutes left surely you push men forward, even stick McKay up top to try and cause a few problems. The frustrating thing is that in these two tough away games we have generally defended well. Stone is a very good GK and Efe and McLelland have been very solid. A good base from which to build on but it is totally unacceptable to offer nothing in an attacking sense. Zero shots on target is pathetic and for me unacceptable. Each to their own - some supporters are ok watching 10 men behind the ball and playing for the 0-0 but I think the majority expect a lot more. Very worrying if our Manager is not “reading the room” because when I listen to his post match assessments I am amazed at how easily pleased he is with the performances. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 57 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said: Very worrying if our Manager is not “reading the room” because when I listen to his post match assessments I am amazed at how easily pleased he is with the performances. I suspect it comes down to an intrinsically self centred approach. If they've largely managed to adhere to his instructions, that's all that matters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slipmat Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, Otis Blue said: Also, I'd be bloody amazed if the BOD haven't had more than a word in Marvin's ear over the past few weeks to highlight that the negative approach to games is having a downwards impact on attendances and hence our financial situation. These sort of discussions will always be part and parcel of a BOD/manager relationship. I'm sure they're rarely easy discussions, but every manager has to expect that. I haven't been to a game since we beat Dundee United in the cup. At first this was due to outside factors involving work, family and bereavement, but now, although I have been free to attend the Annan and Alloa home games I just couldn't find any enthusiasm within me to go along for exactly the reason you mention above. I don't want to pay good money to watch a team playing endless square passes in front of their own penalty box trying to shitfest a 0-0 against average opposition. I want to see a team that takes the game to the opposition and puts them under pressure from the kick-off. Players putting a shift in is all well and good, but if all that effort is being spent faffing about in our own half it's not entertaining nor value for money. This is probably the longest run of games I've missed since the last few months of Naysmith's spell in charge, when again I stopped going because he was sending teams out with what appeared to be no intention of winning games, just avoid getting beaten - no matter the standard of opposition. Having a couple of token shots during a game, which are usually off target anyway, and not pressing opposing players just doesn't do it for me. Strangely in the first half dozen or so games of the season we were a relatively free-scoring team getting at least 2 per game, then Reilly was injured and from that moment on MB seems to have changed approach and not looked remotely interested in reverting to any form of attacking football, which is a strange thing to do given that since he adopted the negative approach we've fallen out of the promotion play off spots to mid table obscurity, even worrying that Annan or Edinburgh City don't somehow get their act together. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queens1919 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, Slipmat said: I haven't been to a game since we beat Dundee United in the cup. At first this was due to outside factors involving work, family and bereavement, but now, although I have been free to attend the Annan and Alloa home games I just couldn't find any enthusiasm within me to go along for exactly the reason you mention above. I don't want to pay good money to watch a team playing endless square passes in front of their own penalty box trying to shitfest a 0-0 against average opposition. I want to see a team that takes the game to the opposition and puts them under pressure from the kick-off. Players putting a shift in is all well and good, but if all that effort is being spent faffing about in our own half it's not entertaining nor value for money. This is probably the longest run of games I've missed since the last few months of Naysmith's spell in charge, when again I stopped going because he was sending teams out with what appeared to be no intention of winning games, just avoid getting beaten - no matter the standard of opposition. Having a couple of token shots during a game, which are usually off target anyway, and not pressing opposing players just doesn't do it for me. Strangely in the first half dozen or so games of the season we were a relatively free-scoring team getting at least 2 per game, then Reilly was injured and from that moment on MB seems to have changed approach and not looked remotely interested in reverting to any form of attacking football, which is a strange thing to do given that since he adopted the negative approach we've fallen out of the promotion play off spots to mid table obscurity, even worrying that Annan or Edinburgh City don't somehow get their act together. Not willing to pay the money, but happy to moan about not being able to get quality players in. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slipmat Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, Queens1919 said: Not willing to pay the money, but happy to moan about not being able to get quality players in. Yes, I'm sure that due to my missing the last three home league games the club has had to completely rethink any plans to make any new signings in the transfer window. My struggle to muster any enthusiasm to attend has nothing to do with the quality of player. It's down to entirely to the manager's tactics, his reluctance to play our most skillful and entertaining player, and his demands that players comply with his instructions to the extent that any creativity and individualism is sucked from our play. It all makes for a horrible watch. With the same team, under the same manager, but playing entertaining, attack minded, almost unpredictable football would draw me back to Palmerston in no time. Bartley though, like many managers these days, seems to be hellbent on coaching anything resembling creativity or doing the unexpected out of the team and it's sapping the enjoyment of watching them out of me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rjc-1988 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 10 minutes ago, Slipmat said: Yes, I'm sure that due to my missing the last three home league games the club has had to completely rethink any plans to make any new signings in the transfer window. My struggle to muster any enthusiasm to attend has nothing to do with the quality of player. It's down to entirely to the manager's tactics, his reluctance to play our most skillful and entertaining player, and his demands that players comply with his instructions to the extent that any creativity and individualism is sucked from our play. It all makes for a horrible watch. With the same team, under the same manager, but playing entertaining, attack minded, almost unpredictable football would draw me back to Palmerston in no time. Bartley though, like many managers these days, seems to be hellbent on coaching anything resembling creativity or doing the unexpected out of the team and it's sapping the enjoyment of watching them out of me. Totally agree. I am away for long spells but I buy the season ticket because I know that it helps the club if they get the money up front. Even when here I find myself missing many games now (something that rarely happened) because I do not feel in tune with the Manager and his tactics. I take an instant dislike to rookie Managers who "breeze in" with some great football philosophy and give the impression that they have all it worked out and under control. When I continually hear our Manager in L1 talking about "extensive detailed game plans" I want to be sick. Yes we need to be sensible with some opposition planning but football is an instinctive game. Players have to react to situations in a split second. They cannot be programmed but in so many games the players play like chess pieces - some play as if they are only allowed to display certain characteristics, others look so confused that they don't know if it is ok for them to play a forward pass. As I said previously we now actually have a decent defensive foundation - a good GK, Ambrose, McLelland and the returning Brydon. That is a very decent defensive quartet at this level. There is no excuse for us not going all out to win games against teams in the same league and 4th place is the bare minimum that is acceptable. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge of allan bairn Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) I empathise with a lot of the points being made above about lack of attacking threat and trying to keep the score line as respectable as possible. We've been there quite a bit in the past few years, barely registering a shot on target, sideways/backwards passing, poor quality of football and managers post match interviews not reflecting how the fans feel about the performances (or players). Most fans don't really care what league their team is in, I've seen Falkirk top half of premier league and bottom half of tier 3 and all we really want is to see our teams attack and play entertaining football, then you will generally turn up for matches irrespective of the league. I'd really struggle with Bartley as a manager, as I've said a couple of times this season, for two reasons, the glossing over of the performances in the post match interviews and the apparent acceptance of not being beaten by more than one goal, through taking a defensive approach, as a relative success. You guys have been (defensively) competitive in all 3 league matches against us this season, yet have still picked up only 1 point from 9, how much worse could it have been if you had actually tried to attack (especially in the 2 away games)? The fans who have travelled and paid a decent deal of money have been completely short changed. I understand those long term fans above starting to not want to go to games, it's mad to think people will continually pay good money to see a team who don't entertain them (quite often in terrible weather). People have too many other things that they can do with their time and money nowadays. Edited January 23 by bridge of allan bairn 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighlandQueen Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 4 hours ago, Rjc-1988 said: Totally agree. I am away for long spells but I buy the season ticket because I know that it helps the club if they get the money up front. Even when here I find myself missing many games now (something that rarely happened) because I do not feel in tune with the Manager and his tactics. I take an instant dislike to rookie Managers who "breeze in" with some great football philosophy and give the impression that they have all it worked out and under control. When I continually hear our Manager in L1 talking about "extensive detailed game plans" I want to be sick. Yes we need to be sensible with some opposition planning but football is an instinctive game. Players have to react to situations in a split second. They cannot be programmed but in so many games the players play like chess pieces - some play as if they are only allowed to display certain characteristics, others look so confused that they don't know if it is ok for them to play a forward pass. As I said previously we now actually have a decent defensive foundation - a good GK, Ambrose, McLelland and the returning Brydon. That is a very decent defensive quartet at this level. There is no excuse for us not going all out to win games against teams in the same league and 4th place is the bare minimum that is acceptable. Agree with all that. I put my 450 quid into the shirt draw every year to help the club but increasingly feel less inclined to undertake a 5 hour round trip to Palmerston given the horrid football on show at the minute. Happy we are more stable defensively but lack of attacking play and entertainment means I’m less inclined to attend. It’s only 80 mins to get to Cove for me but the thought of another dull game with few attacks on the opposition goal, square passes followed by a long ball make it likely I will give it a miss. If we get Reilly and Cochrane back plus one new signing I may think again. It’s not much fun being a Queens fan just now. Although I support Marvs more thoughtful and professional approach sadly the facts are it’s awful to watch and results on paper are no better than the shambolic Gibson era, despite ( in my opinion) a better pool. Quite depressing really. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queens1919 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 6 hours ago, Slipmat said: Yes, I'm sure that due to my missing the last three home league games the club has had to completely rethink any plans to make any new signings in the transfer window. My struggle to muster any enthusiasm to attend has nothing to do with the quality of player. It's down to entirely to the manager's tactics, his reluctance to play our most skillful and entertaining player, and his demands that players comply with his instructions to the extent that any creativity and individualism is sucked from our play. It all makes for a horrible watch. With the same team, under the same manager, but playing entertaining, attack minded, almost unpredictable football would draw me back to Palmerston in no time. Bartley though, like many managers these days, seems to be hellbent on coaching anything resembling creativity or doing the unexpected out of the team and it's sapping the enjoyment of watching them out of me. Unfortunately your not the only one with that mind set and thats clear with the dwindling crowds. And its not rocket science, that if "supporters" who dont buy a season ticket, and dont go, then thats less budget for signing quality players. Last time we were in L1 12/13 for eg. We had 1738 home crowd against Alloa. Last weeks game against alloa we had 965. Thats 773, lets say some were Alloa fans, but thats still roughly 500 folk not turning up paying 18 quid and if thats average, it is around 162k over 18 games a season. Yet yous wonder how the team have went backwards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Onion Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 5 minutes ago, Queens1919 said: Unfortunately your not the only one with that mind set and thats clear with the dwindling crowds. And its not rocket science, that if "supporters" who dont buy a season ticket, and dont go, then thats less budget for signing quality players. Last time we were in L1 12/13 for eg. We had 1738 home crowd against Alloa. Last weeks game against alloa we had 965. Thats 773, lets say some were Alloa fans, but thats still roughly 500 folk not turning up paying 18 quid and if thats average, it is around 162k over 18 games a season. Yet yous wonder how the team have went backwards. The team had money spent in the summer before a game was played. The manager had assembled his squad ready for a title push in the summer. Crowds have dropped off through the season due to his inability to win a game of football against mostly part time teams. There could've been 3 folk in the crowd up until Christmas and it woipdnt have made a difference to his playing squad. I think your having a go at the wrong people here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie Mills Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 12 minutes ago, Queens1919 said: Unfortunately your not the only one with that mind set and thats clear with the dwindling crowds. And its not rocket science, that if "supporters" who dont buy a season ticket, and dont go, then thats less budget for signing quality players. Last time we were in L1 12/13 for eg. We had 1738 home crowd against Alloa. Last weeks game against alloa we had 965. Thats 773, lets say some were Alloa fans, but thats still roughly 500 folk not turning up paying 18 quid and if thats average, it is around 162k over 18 games a season. Yet yous wonder how the team have went backwards. Put a good/entertaining team on the pitch and folk will attend (like what happened in 12/13). Spending peanuts on the cheapest dross available (cast offs from teams we are hoping to compete against usually) and playing the most boring brand of football I’ve ever seen at Palmerston - that is why we are going backwards and why folk are voting with their feet. The current board have zero ambition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Hillshaveyes Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Taking Falkirk out the equation Queens are the second biggest club in the league & shouldn't be as way of the pace as they are...MB interviews where he comes across as pleased not to get a pumping are frankly bizarre 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19QOS19 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, Queens1919 said: Unfortunately your not the only one with that mind set and thats clear with the dwindling crowds. And its not rocket science, that if "supporters" who dont buy a season ticket, and dont go, then thats less budget for signing quality players. Last time we were in L1 12/13 for eg. We had 1738 home crowd against Alloa. Last weeks game against alloa we had 965. Thats 773, lets say some were Alloa fans, but thats still roughly 500 folk not turning up paying 18 quid and if thats average, it is around 162k over 18 games a season. Yet yous wonder how the team have went backwards. Have you had a look at the state of the country the now? Regarding your "supporters" jibe, £18 is a lot of money for some folk at this moment in time. Why would you expect them to feel the need to waste this kind of money on something that's absolutely terrible every single week? Crowds didn't just drop overnight* so what's went wrong along the way?: Either poor management or poor leadership off the park - is that the fans fault? The majority of fans are only replicating the product on the park and the state of Palmerston - negativity. The whole club has a feel of that just now. The stadium is a mess (yet some deluded folk on here think even that is the fans responsibility to clean) and the football is terrible (though 0 shots on target over two games is a good outcome apparently). It doesn't really have an inviting feeling for folk to stand or sit (on any of the seats not covered in birdshit) in the freezing cold for a couple of hours. As for the quality signings, the fans rallied together to set up a fund for this very reason but it was ignored, even when AJ spent his entire second spell bemoaning the budget. I think your anger is pointed entirely at the wrong people. Instead of having a go at those who've stopped attending maybe your disappointment should be directed towards the folk who've made those supporters walk away? * Though they probably took a hit after the Rangers vote and the Galloway debacle. Is that the fans's fault as well or again the stupidity of our Board? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegetableman Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Can some of you tell me the definition of Supporter ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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