The Queen of the South thread

[Monkey Tennis]

6 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

Revisionism ...? I've said from the start of the season that Accies and Falkirk had the best squads and that our realistic target would be 3rd.

Yes, I'd like to have hoped the gap would be less, and if we can get our injury list reduced then maybe 3rd is still achievable.

Doesn't alter the fact that how we perform against the other seven clubs will be the real key to our season, with anything taken from the top two a bonus. That's not writing any games off, it's just stating the obvious. We'll still look to take points off the top two.

 

Sorry, but I'm not accepting that sneaking the odd point off Hamilton will be a bonus.  We need more ambition than that.

You're a whisker from referring to 'free hits'.  

It's Hamilton and Falkirk for Christ's sake.  It's September for Christ's sake.

I'm glad nobody seemed to see it that way when we shared a division with 3 of the country's 5 biggest clubs, in addition to the behemoth that is Falkirk.

[Distant Doonhamer]

9 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Sorry, but I'm not accepting that sneaking the odd point off Hamilton will be a bonus.  We need more ambition than that.

You're a whisker from referring to 'free hits'.  

It's Hamilton and Falkirk for Christ's sake.  It's September for Christ's sake.

I'm glad nobody seemed to see it that way when we shared a division with 3 of the country's 5 biggest clubs, in addition to the behemoth that is Falkirk.

Agree with this.

It's the third tier of Scottish football FFS.

[Greenacres]

26 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yip he's clearly very frustrated.  

We know we're not fielding a full strength side just now, so there is some mitigation.  However, he's clearly really getting pissed off with a lack of focus and awareness in some of  his players - a basic lack of maturity perhaps.

He sounds unsure of how to fix it.   

 

 

That is my take as well he seems lost on what to do next .

For the first time the pressure is really on.

One thing for sure we must get a result at Kelty..

On the Falkirk / Hamilton thing they will both have a budget double ours Falkirk probable treble that  will always get you to the top.

Both squads especially Falkirk are miles better than what we have.

 

  

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Greenacres

[bod]

Massive next 4 league games for us and Bartley. No disrespect to any of the teams but we must be taking 12 points. Hopefully some if not all those injured will be back to help.

Edited September 24, 2023 by bod

[Diamonds are Forever]

53 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Sorry, but I'm not accepting that sneaking the odd point off Hamilton will be a bonus.  We need more ambition than that.

You're a whisker from referring to 'free hits'.  

It's Hamilton and Falkirk for Christ's sake.  It's September for Christ's sake.

I'm glad nobody seemed to see it that way when we shared a division with 3 of the country's 5 biggest clubs, in addition to the behemoth that is Falkirk.

 

41 minutes ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

Agree with this.

It's the third tier of Scottish football FFS.

 

Interesting reading this from the outside. It's scary how quickly after getting relegated that some fans have already accepted you are a 'play-off hopeful' type team rather than a geniune promotion contender. I can say from plenty experience (10 years to be precise) that that mindset becomes very hard to shift once it sets in. We never really did shift it and it was a bit of play-off fortune that got us up.

I know Falkirk seem to finally have got their act together, and Hamilton have spent a bit of money. But to be 10 points behind already is pretty poor, and the attitude that points at home to them are a 'bonus' seems very accepting of mediocrity. I don't believe Bartley would have taken the job if he thought the limit of their capabilities was going to be finishing 3rd and hoping to win the play-off lottery.

Would still fully expect Queens to reach the play-offs and then who knows, but a bit surprised to see fans already lower their expectations so much.

 

[Biblemaster]

1 hour ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

Would still fully expect Queens to reach the play-offs and then who knows, but a bit surprised to see fans already lower their expectations so much.

 

Until yesterday, I'd have agreed, but you didn't see yesterday's match and I can assure you that the gap between the sides was much wider than the scoreline suggests.

 

Having said that, our only decent defender has been out all season, our only creative player has struggled all season and only managed 10 minutes yesterday and our only goal threat was out yesterday as well, so hopefully things will get better, but 10 points is a hell of a start to give two teams who won't loose often this season.

[Distant Doonhamer]

1 hour ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

Would still fully expect Queens to reach the play-offs and then who knows, but a bit surprised to see fans already lower their expectations so much.

 

Expectations have been lowered this early, at least in part, because we've been awful for seasons now.  In particular an awful watch and a soft touch at home.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Distant Doonhamer

[Otis Blue]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Sorry, but I'm not accepting that sneaking the odd point off Hamilton will be a bonus.  We need more ambition than that.

You're a whisker from referring to 'free hits'.  

It's Hamilton and Falkirk for Christ's sake.  It's September for Christ's sake.

I'm glad nobody seemed to see it that way when we shared a division with 3 of the country's 5 biggest clubs, in addition to the behemoth that is Falkirk.

Did I ever say we're not capable, nor have the potential of competing with the likes of Accies and Falkirk ... we've spent most of the first two decades of this century in the Championship after all.

What I am is a pragmatist and a realist. I watched the various squads being assembled at the start of this season and expressed the view that our squad wasn't a match for those two and that 3rd would be a decent objective for us this season ... and this is proving true.

Now that's a totally different thing from saying that Queens should not be capable of competing with Accies and Falkirk as a generalist statement. You've chosen to spin my view of the current situation into a much broader meaning ... and that wasn't my point.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

 

Interesting reading this from the outside. It's scary how quickly after getting relegated that some fans have already accepted you are a 'play-off hopeful' type team rather than a geniune promotion contender. I can say from plenty experience (10 years to be precise) that that mindset becomes very hard to shift once it sets in. We never really did shift it and it was a bit of play-off fortune that got us up.

I know Falkirk seem to finally have got their act together, and Hamilton have spent a bit of money. But to be 10 points behind already is pretty poor, and the attitude that points at home to them are a 'bonus' seems very accepting of mediocrity. I don't believe Bartley would have taken the job if he thought the limit of their capabilities was going to be finishing 3rd and hoping to win the play-off lottery.

Would still fully expect Queens to reach the play-offs and then who knows, but a bit surprised to see fans already lower their expectations so much.

 

Pretty much agree with this.

I'm certainly not suggesting we should be strolling the division.  My own summer prediction for the final table had Falkirk and Hamilton in the top 2 slots.

However, I don't for a minute think their advantages are such that anything taken from them is a bonus. 

They've both started well, but they're only out of sight for us, because we've been lousy.   It's not that we can't possibly live with them.

[Rjc-1988]

I think Bartley really needs to analyse our style of play and apply a genuine self critical assessment of the recurring themes.The overwhelming conclusion has to be that we need to stop this suicidal playing out from the back and start to become really difficult to play against. We are actually really easy to play against, pass the ball to death in our own half, and are very passive when we don’t have the ball. 
 

I think he also needs to pick a formation that incorporates two strikers especially at home but ideally away as well. One up top is a boring way to play and makes it very tough indeed for the lone striker who is invariably starved of service. 4-4-2 is the formation for Diddy football - two banks of 4, some width and two up front. Keep it simple and get the opposition turning - passing the ball to death in front of the opposition is easy to deal with. No wonder we almost lose every home game - we are dead easy to play against. Soft, passive and lacking in basic game management.

Massive turnaround required - Bartley struggling and showing his managerial inexperience. It is great to want total football but this is the third tier of Scottish football - let’s get real and create a formation that suits the ability of the players at his disposal not what he sees on Sky via Man City.

 

[19QOS19]

56 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

I think Bartley really needs to analyse our style of play and apply a genuine self critical assessment of the recurring themes.The overwhelming conclusion has to be that we need to stop this suicidal playing out from the back and start to become really difficult to play against. We are actually really easy to play against, pass the ball to death in our own half, and are very passive when we don’t have the ball. 
 

I think he also needs to pick a formation that incorporates two strikers especially at home but ideally away as well. One up top is a boring way to play and makes it very tough indeed for the lone striker who is invariably starved of service. 4-4-2 is the formation for Diddy football - two banks of 4, some width and two up front. Keep it simple and get the opposition turning - passing the ball to death in front of the opposition is easy to deal with. No wonder we almost lose every home game - we are dead easy to play against. Soft, passive and lacking in basic game management.

Massive turnaround required - Bartley struggling and showing his managerial inexperience. It is great to want total football but this is the third tier of Scottish football - let’s get real and create a formation that suits the ability of the players at his disposal not what he sees on Sky via Man City.

 

We get overrun with 5 (3 CM) midfielders, how would removing one make us more difficult to beat? I dread to think how bad it would get if we had one less player in there given how dodgy we are already. 

 

[Rjc-1988]

6 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

We get overrun with 5 (3 CM) midfielders, how would removing one make us more difficult to beat? I dread to think how bad it would get if we had one less player in there given how dodgy we are already. 

 

Well if that’s the case then what has Bartley been playing at signing players that get overrun week after week in L1? The recruitment has been dire. 

You can play a midfield 4 that doesn’t necessarily have two wide players in it - all 4 can tuck in and let the full backs retain some width. The other issue is that if you play with 2 up you occupy the opposition central defence and their CBs can’t stroll forward unchallenged and pick passes at our expense.

Whatever way you cut it - we can’t go on playing the way we are - MB’s tactics are very poor and we have become a “one trick pony”. 

 

 

[19QOS19]

35 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

Well if that’s the case then what has Bartley been playing at signing players that get overrun week after week in L1? The recruitment has been dire. 

You can play a midfield 4 that doesn’t necessarily have two wide players in it - all 4 can tuck in and let the full backs retain some width. The other issue is that if you play with 2 up you occupy the opposition central defence and their CBs can’t stroll forward unchallenged and pick passes at our expense.

Whatever way you cut it - we can’t go on playing the way we are - MB’s tactics are very poor and we have become a “one trick pony”. 

 

 

Recruitment's an entirely different discussion. Putting another striker up front weakens us in the middle which we clearly can't afford. I've not really seen a side play 4 midfielders with none of them playing wide tbh. Perhaps a 'diamond' but it'd still leave us short in the middle. 

It's still hard to judge MBs tactics tbh. The number of times our players decide to pass the ball to absolutely no one (even when under no pressure) or happily gift goals is ridiculous. I doubt that's incorporated into his game plan. Cammy Logan can find himself extremely lucky to still be playing. Getting really fed up of him losing possession. 

[Rjc-1988]

18 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Recruitment's an entirely different discussion. Putting another striker up front weakens us in the middle which we clearly can't afford. I've not really seen a side play 4 midfielders with none of them playing wide tbh. Perhaps a 'diamond' but it'd still leave us short in the middle. 

It's still hard to judge MBs tactics tbh. The number of times our players decide to pass the ball to absolutely no one (even when under no pressure) or happily gift goals is ridiculous. I doubt that's incorporated into his game plan. Cammy Logan can find himself extremely lucky to still be playing. Getting really fed up of him losing possession. 

I didn’t necessarily mean 4 central midfielders but you could mix it up with say Walker/Gibson wide left and three more traditional midfielders in there. Or just ask the wide players to tuck in when we don’t have the ball.
 

I know a lot of supporters (regulars) many who are posting on Facebook that are utterly sick of us playing one isolated striker and persisting with this “total football” approach that is simply not working. I am firmly in that camp.
 

Unlike many supporters I wasn’t mesmerised by MB’s rhetoric. I judge any Manager on what I see on the pitch not the talk on post match podcasts. When Cathro came to Hearts he implied that he had invented some new scientific approach to football. MB is not quite in that category but   
he does exude an air of confidence that is not being backed up by his players on the pitch.

I want to be a fan of MB and he has a very tough job but I am extremely disappointed with what I am seeing both in terms of results and style of play.

 

[19QOS19]

19 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

I didn’t necessarily mean 4 central midfielders but you could mix it up with say Walker/Gibson wide left and three more traditional midfielders in there. Or just ask the wide players to tuck in when we don’t have the ball.
 

I know a lot of supporters (regulars) many who are posting on Facebook that are utterly sick of us playing one isolated striker and persisting with this “total football” approach that is simply not working. I am firmly in that camp.

As I say, we've been playing with one up front for a few seasons now. It's not a MB implementation - remember the genius move from AJ to play Dobbie up top alone? The reality is a lot of sides play with one striker now which means they have another body in the middle. I wouldn't fancy us 4 vs 4 in most games, never mind 4 vs 5. 

The point is that 2 up front wouldn't solve any of our problems. If anything it would make things a lot worse. 

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

Recruitment's an entirely different discussion. 

It is and it isn't.

If the recruitment hasn't resulted in suitably capable players being fielded, then that impacts on what makes sense as to how we set up.

[Rjc-1988]

Ok that’s your opinion and we will agree to disagree on that point.I can barely muster the enthusiasm to go to matches now. A 150 mile round trip to watch us take 10 passes to get from GK to RB TO CB TO LB back to GK ……………and a Sclaff out of the park when we get ourselves into trouble which is almost every time we build up from our own 6 yard box.

I want attackers taking defenders on, getting crosses in, shots at goal not 10 passes going absolutely nowhere. 

I can barely watch Man City do it because it’s not entertaining but at least they do it with some panache and sense of purpose.

 

[Bigbrbairn]

As Falkirk have found playing one up top only works if the front man is able to hold the ball up and let the midfielders come through. In McIver( at the moment ) we have that sort of player and it works wonders. We had a lot of shouts for 2 up front before he signed but not now. I feel your pain

Edited September 24, 2023 by Bigbrbairn

[19QOS19]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

It is and it isn't.

If the recruitment hasn't resulted in suitably capable players being fielded, then that impacts on what makes sense as to how we set up.

We aren't good enough to go with two up front as it stands, that may well be down to the recruitment of course. I don't think MB ever had any intention of setting up with 2 mind you. 

 

1 hour ago, Bigbrbairn said:

As Falkirk have found playing one up top only works if the front man is able to hold the ball up and let the midfielders come through. In McIver( at the moment ) we have that sort of player and it works wonders. We had a lot of shouts for 2 up front before he signed but not now. I feel your pain

If we had the personnel to be able to play 2 up front I wouldn't argue the toss. I just think it would be complete carnage if we sacrificed a midfielder though. If we had a full side (or more importantly Brydon at the back) it may be interesting to see if he goes for it. I doubt it though. 

[Rjc-1988]

18 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

We aren't good enough to go with two up front as it stands, that may well be down to the recruitment of course. I don't think MB ever had any intention of setting up with 2 mind you. 

 

If we had the personnel to be able to play 2 up front I wouldn't argue the toss. I just think it would be complete carnage if we sacrificed a midfielder though. If we had a full side (or more importantly Brydon at the back) it may be interesting to see if he goes for it. I doubt it though. 

Sadly modern Managers have got supporters brainwashed into thinking that playing two up top is some cavalier attacking strategy. In Diddy football it should be a pre-requisite- it is not even that attacking. You still have EIGHT outfield players in deeper positions to combat the opposition.How many do you want behind the ball? FT Players should have enough football intelligence to be flexible to move into different positions depending on how the game is going. You talk about 5v4 in midfield as if players are in a straight jacket and can only operate in their starting slots- good players get a feel for how the game is progressing and re-position accordingly. Honestly it’s madness - you are talking as if MB’s master plan is actually working - we have lost 3 out of 4 home games mostly against very modest opposition.