Birth rates / Fertility

[RH33]

Just now, Left Back said:

Isn’t that normal though?  You realise through experience they aren’t made of glass and they get more freedom as a result.

Yeah, I'm probably bit hard on my kids as I have expectations, boundaries and standards, I'm their parent not their pal (prob why my teenager fucked off to his dad's) but she's the one thats most work.

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Immigration is the fall back certainly. Does it look to you like the Westminster government are keen on that?

We can vote for a different governing party and (in theory) to end Westminster rule as well.

[Boo Khaki]

6 hours ago, The Moonster said:

Have you had pressure from your family or society to have kids? 

I wouldn't say I encountered anything I'd call 'pressure', but certainly there was an unspoken expectation, and incredulity that it didn't happen or when I told these people it wasn't going to.

I was together with my Ex for over a decade before we actually got married. As soon as we came back from honeymoon the bullshit started. It basically ended when I'd finally had enough and told her old man to mind his own fucking business and stop with the sly digs and constantly havering on about all their own pals' grandkids.

The most ridiculous was when we met an old friend on a night out a couple of years after we got hitched. Most of our friends were having their first or second at this point, and she deliberately waited until my mrs had gone to the loo then accosted me with a 'you know you can get help if it's not happening for you?'. I was completely nonplussed to begin with, and then I realised what she was getting at. I'll never forget the look on her face and her total inability to process my response to her that far from 'not happening', we simply weren't trying because neither of us had the blindest bit of interest in being parents. It simply doesn't enter the heads of some folk that other people either do not want, or in my case, can't fucking stand children.

[Thorongil]

3 hours ago, Alert Mongoose said:

I think most of us have regrets about lots of things but I'm not sure it would apply here.  Sometimes it just makes you think the grass is even greener when the reality is almost always different.

I think it's important to remember that some children are much easier to bring up than others.  My wife and I had about 6 attempts at IVF before giving up and going down the adoption route. We therefore had an idea that any child is more likely to need additional support from us as parents.  I'm sure there are others in a more unfortunate situation than us buts it's been a tough few years. 

Important to note that if I had the choice in hindsight I would still make the same decision. They can bring moments of sheer joy which will always overcome they days when you are tearing your hair out.

My point was more around if more and more people decide that children are too much hassle, then I fear they may get a shock years down the line when their is little support in their older age.

I don’t want support from my children in my old age. I will organise my life and affairs to make sure it is not required. 

Too often I have seen parents feeling that their adult children “owe” them in some way. My children owe me nothing and never will. It was not their choice to come into the world, it was mine and my wife’s.

[Boo Khaki]

7 minutes ago, Thorongil said:

I don’t want support from my children in my old age. I will organise my life and affairs to make sure it is not required. 

Too often I have seen parents feeling that their adult children “owe” them in some way. My children owe me nothing and never will. It was not their choice to come into the world, it was mine and my wife’s.

This is why I have absolutely no guilt whatsoever about my decision to cut all contact with and have nothing to do with my mother. The things that have happened to get to this stage are not particularly relevant to this thread, but the fact is I don't in any way 'owe' her contact. My parents chose to have children, that decision was nothing to do with me. Am I supposed to feel a debt of gratitude purely because they did the absolute bare minimum to parent the children they chose to have?

To be honest, she could be dead for all I know. I couldn't care less, just like I couldn't care less about what care needs she might have, how that's paid for, or what it might mean for her estate. That's her lookout. I view the fact I'm related to her as nothing more than accident of birth.

[Thorongil]

6 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

This is why I have absolutely no guilt whatsoever about my decision to cut all contact with and have nothing to do with my mother. The things that have happened to get to this stage are not particularly relevant to this thread, but the fact is I don't in any way 'owe' her contact. My parents chose to have children, that decision was nothing to do with me. Am I supposed to feel a debt of gratitude purely because they did the absolute bare minimum to parent the children they chose to have?

To be honest, she could be dead for all I know. I couldn't care less, just like I couldn't care less about what care needs she might have, how that's paid for, or what it might mean for her estate. That's her lookout. I view the fact I'm related to her as nothing more than accident of birth.

Have had similar experiences, not fun. But yes, you are right in your approach, no question.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Why would you purposely plan to be a burden on your kids when you’re old?

It sounds like you’re bitter about having them and expect some repayment.

[Cosmic Joe]

I think we maybe got lucky with our two. We still enjoy family holidays together with them in their 20s.

Deciding not to inflict a smacking regime on them from an early age might be a factor

[effeffsee_the2nd]

49 minutes ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Why would you purposely plan to be a burden on your kids when you’re old?

It sounds like you’re bitter about having them and expect some repayment.

I don't think he personally is in this case but perhaps using it for the sake of example

Something very relevant to this thread however is that, in the pre -  welfare state days ( and still today in much of the developing world) people absolutely relied on family for anything they couldn't manage themselves. including care of sick or elderly parents & grandparents. There was simply no such thing as shipping auld granny off to the home or personal independence plans for those unable to work. people did and in some cases still do have children in order to give the family a lifeline. My parents are in their mid 60s and they both knew of school friends who were smart enough to progress in education but their folks wanted them out of the school to work and contribute money to the house. 

There is basically none of that anymore in first world countries 

[ICTChris]

I don't think he personally is in this case but perhaps using it for the sake of example
Something very relevant to this thread however is that, in the pre -  welfare state days ( and still today in much of the developing world) people absolutely relied on family for anything they couldn't manage themselves. including care of sick or elderly parents & grandparents. There was simply no such thing as shipping auld granny off to the home or personal independence plans for those unable to work. people did and in some cases still do have children in order to give the family a lifeline. My parents are in their mid 60s and they both knew of school friends who were smart enough to progress in education but their folks wanted them out of the school to work and contribute money to the house. 
There is basically none of that anymore in first world countries 

A lot of people still rely on relatives for care - I have several friends and relatives who are carers, some full time, for parents or other family members.

[Monkey Tennis]

Some weirdly dogmatic posturing on this thread.

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Some weirdly dogmatic posturing on this thread.

But unsurprising, considering who it's coming from.

[Boo Khaki]

2 hours ago, ICTChris said:

 

A lot of people still rely on relatives for care - I have several friends and relatives who are carers, some full time, for parents or other family members.

 

Yeah, my partner is basically an unpaid carer for her parents. They already get help from the LA, but it's insufficient to cater for all their needs, so mrs is up there 2-3 times a week picking up the shortfall. She hardly had a fantastic relationship with them either earlier in her life, but nothing like as toxic as my own parents, so I can understand why she does it even if she's not shy in admitting how difficult she finds it and is quite frank about how much it takes out of her.

To be honest, I think she does it because her parents are not equally as dependent as each other, and if she didn't bother the burden of looking after the most vulnerable one would fall entirely on the one she is actually really fond of, so she's caring for a parent that she genuinely isn't very fond of out of love for the one she is. It's a frustrating situation because she doesn't keep in the best of health herself, and she's working full time to support herself to boot. 

I know her parents didn't decide to procreate just for the sake of having someone to look after them in old age, but I have an enormous degree of admiration for her for doing it, because I certainly wouldn't have for mine. That's perhaps more a reflection on my parents own failings as anything else though, because I'm in no way deficient in compassion or unwilling to help other people that I do actually believe deserve it.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

2 hours ago, ICTChris said:

 

A lot of people still rely on relatives for care - I have several friends and relatives who are carers, some full time, for parents or other family members.

 

I know mate, i meant people having kids to help contribute to the family ( except from when they were very young obviously)  was definitely a thing in the past and still is in parts of the world - the ones with the higher birthrates usualy

that and the fact that contraception is now widely available, well understood and its cultural and religious taboos ( in the west at least ) are now negligible, probably explains where we are now

[Satoshi]

Good thread, I think first of all I find it fascinating that both low birth rates and overpopulation are simultaneously on the UK political agenda. The former is fact based, and the latter right wing hand ringing, but still.

The Economist had a good article on it this week, the number of young people is broadly increasing in cities but dramatically decreasing in rural areas. Norwich is used as an example of a city with a growing youth culture, whilst the areas surrounding it are almost all 60+.

This has a number of weird societal effects. The UK probably is suffering overpopulation in certain areas, especially in the South East, but most of the country (and certainly most of Scotland) suffers the opposite. It's a clear reason why the UK should have a differentiated immigration policy - something newish nations like Australia achieve fairly easily.

Secondly, the idea that the world would starve once we got to 1bn people was the scientific consensus for most of the 19th century (like Global Warming is now). Human ingenuity got us out of that, we can certainly feed 7bn people. In 1947 around half the world lived in absolute poverty, without enough calories per day to eat, now this is around 1-2% (still far too much of course). What the world certainly cannot support is 7bn people living like those in the Europe or (especially) the US do. Still my favourite stat - only 20% of the world have ever been on an airplane before.

In that context, the well known correlation between wealth and declining birth rates is actually a good thing for the planet as a whole, even if it is clearly bad for the countries affected. In general more people means more ideas, the whole world should focus on educating the billions of poor young people around the world - they are the future for all of us.

I've always wanted to have kids and hope to in the next 5-10 years. It hopefully won't be in the UK though, and having spent the last few years in countries where live in domestic helpers are common it's definitely an attractive model if available. Sadly, these jobs are far better than the alternatives for many of the domestic workers in question. I don't disagree it's a bit of a cop out, but would help if me and my partner want to work full time. I'm also not adverse to going full time dad at some point in the future.

To quote Homer Simpson - "Kids are great. You can teach them to hate what you hate".

[DMCs]

12 hours ago, Thorongil said:

I don’t want support from my children in my old age. I will organise my life and affairs to make sure it is not required. 

Too often I have seen parents feeling that their adult children “owe” them in some way. My children owe me nothing and never will. It was not their choice to come into the world, it was mine and my wife’s.

So you wouldn't be upset or sad if your children didn't visit you at all in your old age? If they didn't bring their own children over so you could meet your grandkids? 

[badgerthewitness]

10 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Good thread, I think first of all I find it fascinating that both low birth rates and overpopulation are simultaneously on the UK political agenda. The former is fact based, and the latter right wing hand ringing, but still.

The Economist had a good article on it this week, the number of young people is broadly increasing in cities but dramatically decreasing in rural areas. Norwich is used as an example of a city with a growing youth culture, whilst the areas surrounding it are almost all 60+.

This has a number of weird societal effects. The UK probably is suffering overpopulation in certain areas, especially in the South East, but most of the country (and certainly most of Scotland) suffers the opposite. It's a clear reason why the UK should have a differentiated immigration policy - something newish nations like Australia achieve fairly easily.

Secondly, the idea that the world would starve once we got to 1bn people was the scientific consensus for most of the 19th century (like Global Warming is now). Human ingenuity got us out of that, we can certainly feed 7bn people. In 1947 around half the world lived in absolute poverty, without enough calories per day to eat, now this is around 1-2% (still far too much of course). What the world certainly cannot support is 7bn people living like those in the Europe or (especially) the US do. Still my favourite stat - only 20% of the world have ever been on an airplane before.

In that context, the well known correlation between wealth and declining birth rates is actually a good thing for the planet as a whole, even if it is clearly bad for the countries affected. In general more people means more ideas, the whole world should focus on educating the billions of poor young people around the world - they are the future for all of us.

I've always wanted to have kids and hope to in the next 5-10 years. It hopefully won't be in the UK though, and having spent the last few years in countries where live in domestic helpers are common it's definitely an attractive model if available. Sadly, these jobs are far better than the alternatives for many of the domestic workers in question. I don't disagree it's a bit of a cop out, but would help if me and my partner want to work full time. I'm also not adverse to going full time dad at some point in the future.

To quote Homer Simpson - "Kids are great. You can teach them to hate what you hate".

Outstanding post until the Aldous Huxleyan penultimate paragraph. 

Edited for clarification: the inference of you offering the domestic something slightly better than abject poverty reeks of exploitation. Hardly progressive.

Edited July 18, 2022 by badgerthewitness

[Alert Mongoose]

Out of interest can one of the posters going down the route of not being a burden explain how they hope to achieve this? Not suggesting it's not a noble aim, just wondering how it's done in practice.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Alert Mongoose

[Richey Edwards]

1 minute ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Out of interest can one of the posters going down the route of not being a burden explain how they hope to achieve this? Not suggesting it's not a noble aim, just wondering how it's done in practice.

[coprolite]

23 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

 airplane 

Opinion dismissed