Alba

[velo army]

The eradication of gaelic wasn't just a product of post Culloden anglicisation. It had been going on for centuries. King Malcolm wanted to eradicate gaelic culture from Scotland as far back as the 12th century.

I was waiting on this thread starting after seeing the Welsh change. I like the welsh change, but our relationship with gaelic is different, I  think . I actually disagree with @ICTChris saying that gaelic is concentrated in the highlands. I'd wager it was more concentrated in the central belt by the revivalist schools in Glasgow, Embra and the surrounding areas (my home town of EK has had a gaelic unit at a primary school since I was a wee boy). 

So no, calling Scotland "Alba" (Allappa) would be a bit of a try hard manoeuvre imvho. The facebook nats (and those who attend indy rallies) would fucking love it though, so for that reason alone it should be shelved.

[ICTChris]

1 minute ago, velo army said:

The eradication of gaelic wasn't just a product of post Culloden anglicisation. It had been going on for centuries. King Malcolm wanted to eradicate gaelic culture from Scotland as far back as the 12th century.

I was waiting on this thread starting after seeing the Welsh change. I like the welsh change, but our relationship with gaelic is different, I  think . I actually disagree with @ICTChris saying that gaelic is concentrated in the highlands. I'd wager it was more concentrated in the central belt by the revivalist schools in Glasgow, Embra and the surrounding areas (my home town of EK has had a gaelic unit at a primary school since I was a wee boy). 

So no, calling Scotland "Alba" (Allappa) would be a bit of a try hard manoeuvre imvho. The facebook nats (and those who attend indy rallies) would fucking love it though, so for that reason alone it should be shelved.

I think the % of speakers is highest in the Highlands but the absolute number is highest in Glasgow.

 

[invergowrie arab]

The Western Isles isn't the Highlands.

Comhairle nan Eilean Siar has over 60% of the population who can speak Gaelic or about 15,000

Glasgow has 1% or about 10,000 if you include the Lanarkshires, Renfrewshires and Dunbartonshires.

[Donathan]

Hard pass.

 

I won’t be calling Wales “Cymru” for the same reason we never talk about Helvetia, Sverige or España on here. 

[Bully Wee Villa]

We always spell France the French way, though.

[Gordopolis]

Hard pass.
 
I won’t be calling Wales “Cymru” for the same reason we never talk about Helvetia, Sverige or España on here. 

España and Sverige aren't really equivalent to Cymru or Alba tho.

España and "Spain" both derive from the same Latin root (Hispania), as opposed to the former being from a completely different language group.

Equally, Sverige and Sweden both come from old Norse.

Pedantic, I know, but you made me think about it

[DiegoDiego]

España and Sverige aren't really equivalent to Cymru or Alba tho.

España and "Spain" both derive from the same Latin root (Hispania), as opposed to the former being from a completely different language group.

Equally, Sverige and Sweden both come from old Norse.

Pedantic, I know, but you made me think about it

Alright: Finland and Suomi or Albania and Shqipëria then.

[velo army]

This is a tremendous conversation though. 

[invergowrie arab]

It makes far more sense for us to call them Cymru anyway. Wales is a word specific to Anglo Saxons and their perception and relationship to the people on their western borders.

I'll start tomorrow.

[Lurkst]

58 minutes ago, velo army said:

The eradication of gaelic wasn't just a product of post Culloden anglicisation. It had been going on for centuries. King Malcolm wanted to eradicate gaelic culture from Scotland as far back as the 12th century.

I was waiting on this thread starting after seeing the Welsh change. I like the welsh change, but our relationship with gaelic is different, I  think . I actually disagree with @ICTChris saying that gaelic is concentrated in the highlands. I'd wager it was more concentrated in the central belt by the revivalist schools in Glasgow, Embra and the surrounding areas (my home town of EK has had a gaelic unit at a primary school since I was a wee boy). 

So no, calling Scotland "Alba" (Allappa) would be a bit of a try hard manoeuvre imvho. The facebook nats (and those who attend indy rallies) would fucking love it though, so for that reason alone it should be shelved.

My great grandparents were both native Gaelic speakers and passed it on to none of their nine kids. Apparently they enjoyed being able to have a private conversation in a packed house.

I guess in the Victorian era preserving the language wasn't seen as a priority. 

 

[Gordopolis]

Wales is a word specific to Anglo Saxons and their perception and relationship to the people on their western borders.

Quite a pejorative term too, loosely meaning "outsiders"/"foreigners"

[invergowrie arab]

The earliest Welsh writing - Y Gododdin is set in Edinburgh - Din Eidyn and concerns the men of Hen Ogledd - the Old North ie Dumbartonshire to Clackmannanshire to East Lothian feasting at Edinburgh Castle - Mynyddog Mwynfawr prior to a battle against the Anglo Saxons at Catterick.

I'd happy give them everything south of the Forth and Clyde back TBQHWY.

2 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

 

 

Quite a pejorative term too, loosely meaning "outsiders"/"foreigners"

 

Same as Cornwall. The outsiders/foreigners of the horn 

*insertkenneth*

Prior to the notions of nation states it was more a recognition of a completely different culture and ethnicity.

[DiegoDiego]

My great grandparents were both

Both great grandparents? Bit inbred are we?

[Gordopolis]

The earliest Welsh writing - Y Gododdin is set in Edinburgh - Din Eidyn and concerns the men of Hen Ogledd - the Old North ie Dumbartonshire to Clackmannanshire to East Lothian feasting at Edinburgh Castle - Mynyddog Mwynfawr prior to a battle against the Anglo Saxons at Catterick.
I'd happy give them everything south of the Forth and Clyde back TBQHWY.
Same as Cornwall. The outsiders/foreigners of the horn 
*insertkenneth*
Prior to the notions of nation states it was more a recognition of a completely different culture and ethnicity.

Didn't know that about Cornwall, thanks.
I just *love* joining the dots with etymology and toponyms. Really helps build a richer picture of the world.

[craigkillie]

A large number of Scots are very hostile towards anything Scottish 
Taking a guess here, I’m assuming the “Welsh cringe” isn’t a thing 

Support for Welsh nationalism is miles short of that for Scottish nationalism, and they voted with England for Brexit, so that doesn't really wash.

[Bully Wee Villa]

1 hour ago, Donathan said:

Hard pass.

 

I won’t be calling Wales “Cymru” for the same reason we never talk about Helvetia, Sverige or España on here. 

Maybe the world would be a slightly better place if people did.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

3 hours ago, velo army said:

The eradication of gaelic wasn't just a product of post Culloden anglicisation. It had been going on for centuries. King Malcolm wanted to eradicate gaelic culture from Scotland as far back as the 12th century.

I was waiting on this thread starting after seeing the Welsh change. I like the welsh change, but our relationship with gaelic is different, I  think . I actually disagree with @ICTChris saying that gaelic is concentrated in the highlands. I'd wager it was more concentrated in the central belt by the revivalist schools in Glasgow, Embra and the surrounding areas (my home town of EK has had a gaelic unit at a primary school since I was a wee boy). 

So no, calling Scotland "Alba" (Allappa) would be a bit of a try hard manoeuvre imvho. The facebook nats (and those who attend indy rallies) would fucking love it though, so for that reason alone it should be shelved.

Don't want to offend anyone here (ok actually I do!) the number of speakers is of course very low at 1% or there abouts, but that's the total number of people who CAN speak it, ie have enough knowledge in to hold a conversation BUT I'd bet a fair number of them are hobbyist/ revivalists. the number of those who actually use Gaelic as their day-to-day language of communication must be about 10% of that if you're lucky. The kids in the revivalist schools will know how to speak it sure, but do they actually bleather away to each other in Gaelic when the teachers not forcing them, do they use it at lunch time or when they're out with their mates? I bet they dinny!

Wales is in a different situation to us. My opinion is the worst thing we could do to Gaelic is to follow Ireland where they have used the Irish language as a way of saying "look how un-English we are " 

so naw, we shouldnae dae it

[Dundee Hibernian]

Since the Scottish football authorities like to follow on the coattails of their English counterparts (naming of our leagues, introduction of age group teams into our minor cup competitions, launch of VAR etc), we really should wait until the FA change their national team name to Anglia.

[Donathan]

8 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Don't want to offend anyone here (ok actually I do!) the number of speakers is of course very low at 1% or there abouts, but that's the total number of people who CAN speak it, ie have enough knowledge in to hold a conversation BUT I'd bet a fair number of them are hobbyist/ revivalists. the number of those who actually use Gaelic as their day-to-day language of communication must be about 10% of that if you're lucky. The kids in the revivalist schools will know how to speak it sure, but do they actually bleather away to each other in Gaelic when the teachers not forcing them, do they use it at lunch time or when they're out with their mates? I bet they dinny!

Wales is in a different situation to us. My opinion is the worst thing we could do to Gaelic is to follow Ireland where they have used the Irish language as a way of saying "look how un-English we are " 

so naw, we shouldnae dae it

Is there a single person in Scotland who can only understand Gaelic and doesn’t speak English at all?

 

What about Welsh speakers? Do any of them not understand English? 

[HibeeJibee]

9 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Don't want to offend anyone here (ok actually I do!) the number of speakers is of course very low at 1% or there abouts, but that's the total number of people who CAN speak it, ie have enough knowledge in to hold a conversation BUT I'd bet a fair number of them are hobbyist/ revivalists.

the number of those who actually use Gaelic as their day-to-day language of communication must be about 10% of that if you're lucky.

The kids in the revivalist schools will know how to speak it sure, but do they actually bleather away to each other in Gaelic when the teachers not forcing them, do they use it at lunch time or when they're out with their mates? I bet they dinny!

Scotland's Gaelic communities to 'die out' in 10 years given 'remote' language policy, report warns | The Scotsman

Gaelic language in 'crisis' in island heartlands - BBC News

Scotland’s Gaelic speaking communities will ‘die out’ within 10 years unless a radical new approach is found in the heartlands of the language, a new study has found. They found social use of Gaelic at the “point of collapse” with around 11,000 vernacular speakers found largely among the over 50s with very low levels of the language now spoken in the home. It is predicted that the community use of Gaelic in the community will reach the “moribund stage” within 10 years if current trends continue, researchers found, years, with only isolated networks of elderly speakers left.

Professor Conchúr Ó Giollagáin, who heads Gaelic research at the University of the Highlands, said that the Scottish Government policy to preserve and promote Gaelic had focussed on schools, the media and academia and that it had failed to relate to those living in Gaelic speaking communities.

He said: “It is important that we are clear about the immense scale of the challenges involved in reversing the ongoing decline in the use of Gaelic in these areas.” He added: “If we want Gaelic communities to survive we need to devise a social policy rather than a symbolic policy. If we fail to do that we will have Gaelic learners and Gaelic officials, but no Gaelic community.

"The decline of the Gaelic community, as especially shown in the marginal practice of Gaelic in families and among teenagers, indicates that without a community-wide revival of Gaelic, the trend towards the loss of vernacular Gaelic will continue."



Gaelic education in Scotland: how much progress has been made? | Tes

ROGER HUTCHINSON: There are limited options for Gaelic in the face of a crisis – West Highland Free Press – www.whfp.com

There is really only one route for producing the Gaelic teachers of the future, and that is Gaelic-medium education. In 2022, however, there were just 135 entries for the Scottish Qualifications Authority (SQA) Gaelic learners National 5 qualification - for French, there were over 6,500.

In urban areas, at least 90 per cent of pupils in Gaelic Medium Education do not come from Gaelic-speaking homes and in many cases the teacher is “the sole input of Gaelic”.

There are 439 Welsh-medium schools and 109,331 pupils (23 per cent) are educated in Welsh-medium schools. In Scotland, the government set itself the target of setting up 10 standalone Gaelic schools in total by next year and is set to miss it; there are currently seven. Around 1 per cent of primary pupils in Scotland are in GME and around 0.5 per cent of secondary pupils. In Wales, learning Welsh is also mandatory until the age of 16 and the government has set the ambitious target of creating a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

Welsh, however, is much more widely spoken: the 2011 census showed 19 per cent of the population was able to speak the language, compared to 1.7 per cent of the Scottish population that reported having “some Gaelic language skills” - and that did not always extend to being able to speak it.



SABHAL MÒR SEMINAR: Debating the path forwards for Gaelic – West Highland Free Press – www.whfp.com

Recently, Sabhal Mòr lecturer Tim Armstrong, who is an organiser of the forthcoming event, argued that the days of ‘natural’ transmission for Scottish Gaelic are simply over, and he believes Gaelic should be considered as a dispersed ‘network’ of speakers rather than a community language.

Wilson McLeod, who will speak at the Sabhal Mòr event, concurs. In a book published last year he argued that Gaelic language revitalisation initiatives in Scotland are ‘too little too late’ and that broad-based interventions to support the language are ‘ever-more impracticable’. McLeod drew a parallel with Latin as ‘an ecclesiastical and intellectual language long after it went out of popular use’.



Warning of crisis in Gaelic teacher recruitment - BBC News

Crisis over bid to keep Gaelic alive - due to shortage of new teachers | HeraldScotland

The teaching of Gaelic in schools is in crisis due to a shortage of new teachers, according to a study. It suggests over the next five years a minimum of 225 teachers would be needed to meet demand, but only 25 qualified for the whole of this year.

A new analysis says 19 local authorities has indicated that in the next five years Scotland will need 420 primary gaelic teachers and 229 in secondaries just to meet the needs of existing or planned provision. There needs to be a minimum of 135 new primary teachers and 90 in secondary that are required. But the numbers graduating from universities this year alone to potentially teach Gaelic amount to just 4 in secondary and 21 in primary. And there are no guarantees they will even become teachers.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by HibeeJibee