If you could change ONE THING about Scottish Football, what would it be?

[Spyro]

On 06/08/2023 at 09:27, TheLad said:

A bigger top league. 

This might encourage teams outwith the top 3 or 4 to actually try and play football with some freedom, rather than merely survive.

Maybe even throw a few youngsters into the mix a bit more often.

It will never happen as they can't shoehorn 4 OF league matches per season into a bigger league, and everyone else can sook the juices out of whatever TV deal it creates

[sfha]

5 hours ago, Spyro said:

It will never happen as they can't shoehorn 4 OF league matches per season into a bigger league, and everyone else can sook the juices out of whatever TV deal it creates

Exactly. Any less than 4 OF matches per season and Sky et al would simply walk away.

[vikingTON]

On 05/08/2023 at 10:28, Football Masters Series said:

Pretty sure you're absolutely right.  People have obviously maligned the split, but if 44 game slogs are the alternative...! I don't envy all those English Football League teams schlepping around doing that

 

18 hours ago, Spyro said:

It will never happen as they can't shoehorn 4 OF league matches per season into a bigger league, and everyone else can sook the juices out of whatever TV deal it creates

You quite clearly can get 4 OF games or indeed any other contrived scenario you want by having a 14 team league and some form of split (whether 6-8 or vice versa, or just 7-7 and the team that finished 7th/8th (or 14th) sits out the last day of the season). 

The additional European spot available also makes it more practical to offer a potential European play-off incentive to teams in the lower half of the league after the split. Indeed with both European and relegation play-offs you can have a highly effective, 18 team top flight if you jettison the 'need' for 4 Old Firm games per season. 

[Nightmare]

You can still have 4 Old Firm games in a 16-team league as well. Belgium has now returned to a 16-team league where the top 6 will play each other 4 times this season. In fact, the Jupiler Pro League had an 18-team top flight last season where the teams in places 1-4 and 5-8 still played each other 4 times.

Romania also has a 16-team league with a 6/10 split (top half play each other twice post-split, bottom half just once), which would satisfy this "need" for 4 OF games but still allow us to expand our top flight.

The "need" for our league to have four games between the arsehole clubs doesn't necessarily suggest that we must go with a smaller league or that we should stick with 12 forever.

 

Leagues should be larger across the board. It probably won't happen in the top flight for a variety of self-serving reasons, but I would really like to see the lower leagues structured into larger divisions with more promotion and relegation places, to avoid the inherent dullness of playing the same teams so many times a season.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Nightmare

[Derry Pele]

On 07/08/2023 at 01:38, RJShire said:

As a former referee who spent a few years in the wosl set up until end of the 21/22 season, consistency of officiating, backing by the SFA for officials out with tier 1 of the pyramid, training and observations by peers as opposed to observers who have been out the game for years and have no practical application of the new laws and interpretations, accountability for officials, transparency by officials, allowances for officials to show some personality in their matches as opposed to the linear robotic route they are going down.

Refereeing isn’t a squad of Masons out to get you, but it’s a massive clique and largely unfair in terms of who gets to the top - you have to fit the mould the old boys look for.

What are the fees like these days? I ask because anyone below Category 3 will gain the best experience in the West, but if you’re acting as an assistant you’re giving up your Saturday afternoon for (what certainly used to be) 25 quid. 

There’s the other reason most of the guys to make it to the very top are from Glasgow/Lanarkshire; money isn’t everything but imagine having to travel from Stirling, Dumfries etc and making a massive financial loss for several years for the sake of what, for many, is and always will be a hobby. 

The flip side of this is that unless you’re an historically minted junior side, you can’t afford the increased cost of officials if they get paid more - for example when Threave were in the Lowland they paid the refs more than they took on the gate. Maybe if the big wigs can sort out more suitable commercial deals then the smaller clubs who currently have little opportunity to get into the SPFL can see some of that extra cash trickled down to them?

[Sergeant Wilson]

13 hours ago, Derry Pele said:

Refereeing isn’t a squad of Masons out to get you, but it’s a massive clique and largely unfair in terms of who gets to the top - you have to fit the mould the old boys look for.

What are the fees like these days? I ask because anyone below Category 3 will gain the best experience in the West, but if you’re acting as an assistant you’re giving up your Saturday afternoon for (what certainly used to be) 25 quid. 

There’s the other reason most of the guys to make it to the very top are from Glasgow/Lanarkshire; money isn’t everything but imagine having to travel from Stirling, Dumfries etc and making a massive financial loss for several years for the sake of what, for many, is and always will be a hobby. 

The flip side of this is that unless you’re an historically minted junior side, you can’t afford the increased cost of officials if they get paid more - for example when Threave were in the Lowland they paid the refs more than they took on the gate. Maybe if the big wigs can sort out more suitable commercial deals then the smaller clubs who currently have little opportunity to get into the SPFL can see some of that extra cash trickled down to them?

I wouldn't do it if it was the last job on earth, but those that do can make a few bob. If they're lino at a West game, they'll be out reffing kids and amateurs on Saturday mornings, all day Sunday and a few during the week.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Sergeant Wilson

[RJShire]

16 hours ago, Derry Pele said:

Refereeing isn’t a squad of Masons out to get you, but it’s a massive clique and largely unfair in terms of who gets to the top - you have to fit the mould the old boys look for.

What are the fees like these days? I ask because anyone below Category 3 will gain the best experience in the West, but if you’re acting as an assistant you’re giving up your Saturday afternoon for (what certainly used to be) 25 quid. 

There’s the other reason most of the guys to make it to the very top are from Glasgow/Lanarkshire; money isn’t everything but imagine having to travel from Stirling, Dumfries etc and making a massive financial loss for several years for the sake of what, for many, is and always will be a hobby. 

The flip side of this is that unless you’re an historically minted junior side, you can’t afford the increased cost of officials if they get paid more - for example when Threave were in the Lowland they paid the refs more than they took on the gate. Maybe if the big wigs can sort out more suitable commercial deals then the smaller clubs who currently have little opportunity to get into the SPFL can see some of that extra cash trickled down to them?

Varied, there is now a base rate then a milage top up. Average you walk away with is 60-65 per game, to encourage refs to not call off the likes of girvan or maybole due to travel for 45 quid. Base rates were 50/55 the higher being wos prem rates, assistants are 27.50 in the prem and 25 in the wos. 

 

AR1s generally cat 4d occasionally cat 5s, ar 2 generally cat 5 and below still in the amateur/youth ranks. 

I could still find myself on a wos prem line a week after doing a wos div one game based on the rota. It sometimes that was subbed out for a lowland league line etc. 

 

For example with wages I know the SWFL and SWPL are all paid for by the SFA, well they were when I did them and I assume they still are like the Scottish cup games. But that's a major issues, people going in with a massive ego, getting paid more than the players and taking a chunk of gate money wondering why they are grossly disliked. 

 

I had a certain style, I like to let play go on, banter with players to get them onside, none of this right go away don't talk you see alot of. But was continually brought up in observations. 

[Fuctifano]

There are a few leagues with 3-way splits now , Belgium as mentioned is one, Bulgaria and Czechia are two others with the middle portion being a European spot play off- the issue that the Czechs hit was that after this reconstruction they lost a euro spot due to a drop in coefficient so the winner of that part last season only got a cash bonus and a bye in the following season's Cup.

I'm broadly in favour of European play offs but it doesn't deal with the issue of playing teams on multiple occasions, you could end up playing a team 2 times pre split, 2 times post split, and then again in the European playoffs (I'm very aware this happens in Scottish lower leagues at the moment leading to 6+ games a season vs same team).  I also think they'd have to be the last game of the season or at least after the Scottish cup final as a place will go to that but I guess the current last game of the season is the Premiership playoff second leg.

Or you could take the San Marino approach to Euro playoffs which is 10 teams in them as whoever gets in is getting pumped anyway.

You could try a 16 team top league with a 4-4-8 split after 30 games, with 5 euro spots- this means you get your 4 OF games per season, the teams between 5-8 get a chance for the last euro spot, and for the bottom 8 you could have the top of the 8 getting into that playoff as well to avoid potential dead rubbers. Would end up with 37 games (bottom half) and 36 (top two parts) but there'd be a reasonable chance teams would make up the income from potentially one lost home game with playoff income.

Would definitely like to see bigger lower leagues as well.

 

[mick90]

There has been a long-running campaign for a National League (that SPFL clubs and SFA cant gerrymander) alongside the `pyramid` campaign, which moves on to the Scottish Parliament shortly. The only way to go forward is to get rid of the very backward SPFL, who prevent major competitive improvements (a much wider and stronger pyramid system) and opportunities for tens of thousands of young people. The last time the game was reasonably competitive here, we had three clubs in uefa semis, two in finals and one winning the major cup, with Scottish players. We cannot go anywhere near that now unless we produce talent again ... only possible through stronger competition. SPFL have destroyed our playing standards and can only achieve third-rate now by recruiting hundreds of foreigners.

We cannot have a full-blooded campaign because too many clubs stay silent and inactive, but we can improve Parliaments awareness of the damage they are doing to our youth by allowing SPFL to run (down) the show.

[___]

On 02/08/2023 at 10:16, 101 said:

Show VAR decisions in football stadiums with the referees comments 

And make them wear a mic, like they do in rugby.

[Otis Blue]

The lack of competitiveness is our biggest problem due to the sheer dominance of the two OF clubs, and this comes down to money - they financially dwarf all competition by a massive margin - if we think Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen can ever compete with them we're kidding ourselves.  We're doomed to suffer this sterility ad infinitum unless the OF go elsewhere (aye, dream on).  And of course, by way of balance - do the OF clubs really look forward to crushing Livingston, St Johnstone, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Mirren, Dundee (or United) and Ross County four times a season?  Lately though, a solution may be starting to appear ... and of course it's big finance.

All big clubs are motivated by financial greed - to compete at the highest level they need the best (most expensive) players and so they need to be in the richest leagues with the richest sponsors/advertisers/media etc.  We're now starting to see the development of the super-rich Saudi league which is siphoning off some of the best talent and this is going to cause consternation among Europe's top clubs, top leagues and UEFA.  In response, a consequence of this could be some kind of acceleration towards European super leagues (which UEFA is already struggling to avoid, hence the soon to be revamped Champions League) - and I'd be surprised if our OF wouldn't want to be part of that development, even if they didn't start in the highest level of that new structure.

It's a very, very long shot, but I can see few other ways to make our game competitive.  Other countries have large clubs, but few are so dominated and to such an extent by only two clubs.  They (the OF) have outgrown our leagues and they need to find alternative pastures which will match their financial aspirations.  Some will say our leagues would suffer financially as a result - but so what?  We'd have competition back.

[Byekick]

On 06/08/2023 at 11:04, Willie adie said:

Where can I find this podcast

Available on all good podcast platforms etc etc https://pod.link/1689368099

[LongTimeLurker]

Only two national divisions of 16 with an 8-8 split to provide 37 games then an east-west-north regional split beneath that so you have around 50 clubs only two promotions away from playing the Old Firm. Go back to home and away teams splitting gate money and enforce a much more even split of TV and sponsorship money in the top tier. Aberdeen sided with Celtic when Rangers were out of the top flight so zero chance of anything that radical ever happening unfortunately.

[Dev]

On 07/08/2023 at 01:38, RJShire said:

As a former referee who spent a few years in the wosl set up until end of the 21/22 season, consistency of officiating, backing by the SFA for officials out with tier 1 of the pyramid, training and observations by peers as opposed to observers who have been out the game for years and have no practical application of the new laws and interpretations, accountability for officials, transparency by officials, allowances for officials to show some personality in their matches as opposed to the linear robotic route they are going down.

(a) Consistency of officiating

(b) Help for officials out with Tier 1

(c) Training and observations by peers as opposed to observers who have been out the game for years and have no practical application of the new laws and interpretations

(d) Accountability and transparency by officials

(e) Allowances for officials to show some personality in their matches as opposed to the linear robotic route they are going down.

All of the above. Do other refs/ex-refs agree with this? Let's hope so and if they do they need to speak up and not be afraid to do so as Refs need help to make the game better for players and spectators alike. This applies throughout the game, not just in Scotland.

[Dev]

On 08/08/2023 at 07:57, virginton said:

 

You quite clearly can get 4 OF games or indeed any other contrived scenario you want by having a 14 team league and some form of split (whether 6-8 or vice versa, or just 7-7 and the team that finished 7th/8th (or 14th) sits out the last day of the season). 

The additional European spot available also makes it more practical to offer a potential European play-off incentive to teams in the lower half of the league after the split. Indeed with both European and relegation play-offs you can have a highly effective, 18 team top flight if you jettison the 'need' for 4 Old Firm games per season. 

As above, which follows the Welsh example of incentivising lower placed clubs with a chance of a money making place in European competition.

Most of the lower clubs will rarely get a sniff at Europe unless there is something along the lines put forward by virginton. Otherwise the Euro club money goes back to the same clubs (more or less) each season so propping up their budgets for players etc and maintaining their dominance, making it a closed shop (well, more or less). 

[Dev]

On 10/08/2023 at 23:47, Derry Pele said:

Refereeing isn’t a squad of Masons out to get you, but it’s a massive clique and largely unfair in terms of who gets to the top - you have to fit the mould the old boys look for.

What are the fees like these days? I ask because anyone below Category 3 will gain the best experience in the West, but if you’re acting as an assistant you’re giving up your Saturday afternoon for (what certainly used to be) 25 quid. 

There’s the other reason most of the guys to make it to the very top are from Glasgow/Lanarkshire; money isn’t everything but imagine having to travel from Stirling, Dumfries etc and making a massive financial loss for several years for the sake of what, for many, is and always will be a hobby. 

The flip side of this is that unless you’re an historically minted junior side, you can’t afford the increased cost of officials if they get paid more - for example when Threave were in the Lowland they paid the refs more than they took on the gate. Maybe if the big wigs can sort out more suitable commercial deals then the smaller clubs who currently have little opportunity to get into the SPFL can see some of that extra cash trickled down to them?

Maybe if the big wigs can sort out more suitable commercial deals then the smaller clubs who currently have little opportunity to get into the SPFL can see some of that extra cash trickled down to them?

imagine having to travel from Stirling, Dumfries etc and making a massive financial loss for several years

Two really good points.

[Dev]

On 11/08/2023 at 16:48, RJShire said:

Varied, there is now a base rate then a milage top up. Average you walk away with is 60-65 per game, to encourage refs to not call off the likes of girvan or maybole due to travel for 45 quid. Base rates were 50/55 the higher being wos prem rates, assistants are 27.50 in the prem and 25 in the wos. 

 

AR1s generally cat 4d occasionally cat 5s, ar 2 generally cat 5 and below still in the amateur/youth ranks. 

I could still find myself on a wos prem line a week after doing a wos div one game based on the rota. It sometimes that was subbed out for a lowland league line etc. 

 

For example with wages I know the SWFL and SWPL are all paid for by the SFA, well they were when I did them and I assume they still are like the Scottish cup games. But that's a major issues, people going in with a massive ego, getting paid more than the players and taking a chunk of gate money wondering why they are grossly disliked. 

 

I had a certain style, I like to let play go on, banter with players to get them onside, none of this right go away don't talk you see alot of. But was continually brought up in observations. 

I had a certain style, I like to let play go on, banter with players to get them onside, none of this right go away don't talk you see alot of. But was continually brought up in observations. 

More good stuff. You should take over as head of the SFA refereeing department (or whatever it's called).

[Dev]

OK this won't happen because central based semi-pro clubs can afford the travel etc to play at national level but the National League should be confined to full-time clubs.

The rest of the current SPFL clubs are just not capable of sustaining (for more than a few seasons) a place in a Division or Divisions filled by full-time clubs. They are out-gunned financially.

 

 

[Stag Nation]

27 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Most of the lower clubs will rarely get a sniff at Europe 

Nor will Birmingham City.

As Jasper Carrot used to say, "City will be in Europe next year ...... If there's a war."

[RJShire]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

I had a certain style, I like to let play go on, banter with players to get them onside, none of this right go away don't talk you see alot of. But was continually brought up in observations. 

More good stuff. You should take over as head of the SFA refereeing department (or whatever it's called).

What the SFA elite boys club?

 

Saw a prime example of what people contend with in terms of consistency in the first game of the season. Sock clash at killie vs rangers. That weekend there wouldve been officials being watched who have had to insist a team change their socks to not clash and are fighting a losing battle before they blow the first whistle. I got pulled for a black vs maroon sock clash in the WoS in my last season