Hendricks Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 As things stand I think it's pretty obvious what will happen, if everyone is available and fit, which would frankly be a miracle. Hickey and McGregor come into that squad and Kelly, Ralston, Taylor and Cooper drop out. Of the 4 I think Cooper would replace Hanley/Souttar if either breaks down again and Ralston would take Hickey's spot. I don't see Taylor in the 23 as Tierney /Hickey can easily play left wing back if necessary. Kelly is being treated well by Clarke by remaining involved but there's no way he can picked ahead of a fit Gordon. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoP Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 19 minutes ago, Hendricks said: As things stand I think it's pretty obvious what will happen, if everyone is available and fit, which would frankly be a miracle. Hickey and McGregor come into that squad and Kelly, Ralston, Taylor and Cooper drop out. Of the 4 I think Cooper would replace Hanley/Souttar if either breaks down again and Ralston would take Hickey's spot. I don't see Taylor in the 23 as Tierney /Hickey can easily play left wing back if necessary. Kelly is being treated well by Clarke by remaining involved but there's no way he can picked ahead of a fit Gordon. It’s the miracle bit that worries me We really need that miracle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 17 hours ago, itzdrk said: We will be 1 striker from 3 at the Euros and it will be 2 from these 3 that would be on the pitch at the same time if we had to go for it so what purpose would some random punter joining the three of them serve? I don't think it would be a random punter. I am sure Clarke has in his mind someone from Conway, Hardie, Stewart, Nisbet or McBurnie in mind should Dykes or Adams get injured to be another striker and to bring one of those is slightly more valuable than a 4th keeper. I think he knows everything he needs to about his keepers at this point, the only thing he might want to see is how Gordon is after his injury but I don't know what he learns from Kelly as 4th choice. I may be wrong but my perception is that Shankland was a late call up to the last squad, he got 5 minutes against Georgia, scored a goal and is now almost a guarantee squad pick. There is more chance of discovering something new by bringing one of the above strikers mentioned than Kelly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 12 hours ago, Hendricks said: As things stand I think it's pretty obvious what will happen, if everyone is available and fit, which would frankly be a miracle. Hickey and McGregor come into that squad and Kelly, Ralston, Taylor and Cooper drop out. Of the 4 I think Cooper would replace Hanley/Souttar if either breaks down again and Ralston would take Hickey's spot. I don't see Taylor in the 23 as Tierney /Hickey can easily play left wing back if necessary. Kelly is being treated well by Clarke by remaining involved but there's no way he can picked ahead of a fit Gordon. I dont think thats obvious at all. I'm not sure what the basis for assuming Souttar is ahead of Cooper (never mind Taylor for that matter). Souttar been consistently the 6th pick centre back over the last 2 or 3 years. He's 100% been behind Cooper in the thinking. Granted Cooper's barely kicked a ball this season and Souttar's got more minutes in him but he's not an automatic pick for Rangers either with Balogun often preferred. We'll only find out if all the other five avoid injury but I suspect Cooper would still be picked over Souttar if it comes to it. Edited March 13 by Skyline Drifter 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) It's hard to tell who's preferred between Liam Cooper and John Souttar. Looking back over 2023 is basically not conclusive. You could interpret it either way. Cooper played more minutes, but was available to play more minutes. They tend not to be directly competing with each other in the sense that Souttar has played the outside centre-back roles, left and right, while Cooper has played in the centre as well as on the left. Cooper, despite playing under Bielsa, is (in my view) a more old fashioned centre-back while Souttar is a more modern ball-playing type. An injury to a specific centre-back (e.g. Hanley, Porteous) could make a difference to who is selected or probably both would be selected. I don't think we'll be able to accurately judge until Clarke is put in a position where he has to choose between. Edited March 13 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 4 minutes ago, 2426255 said: It's hard to tell who's preferred between Liam Cooper and John Souttar. Looking back over 2023 is basically not conclusive. You could interpret it either way. Cooper played more minutes, but was available to play more minutes. They tend not to be directly competing with each other in the sense that Souttar has played the outside centre-back roles, left and right, while Cooper has played in the centre as well as on the left. An injury to a specific centre-back (e.g. Hanley, Porteous) could make a difference to who is selected. Cooper, despite playing under Bielsa, is (in my view) a more old fashioned centre-back while Souttar is a more modern ball-playing type. Fair enough, though my distinct impression is that Clarke has looked to Cooper before he's looked to Souttar, although that's an opinion formed more historically than just 2023. Regardless, even with your stats, there's no basis for it being "obvious" that Souttar's ahead of Cooper. At best it's a 50/50 (as you say). My own feeling is that if Jack's proven fit, and there are no injuries amongst the Tierney, Hanley, Hendrie, Porteous, McKenna group, then neither of them will go and Jack will get picked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streets of Raith Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Hopefully over the two friendlies we get to see some things that we actually need to learn about our options, regardless of any changes to the XI at the Euros. 1) Shankland getting a start up front in more or the less the strongest team. 2) Ferguson getting a chance in the McGinn role. 3) McLean playing the Tierney role at LCB, based on his stint there for Norwich. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 1 hour ago, Streets of Raith said: Hopefully over the two friendlies we get to see some things that we actually need to learn about our options, regardless of any changes to the XI at the Euros. 1) Shankland getting a start up front in more or the less the strongest team. 2) Ferguson getting a chance in the McGinn role. 3) McLean playing the Tierney role at LCB, based on his stint there for Norwich. I'm not sure why we'd want to see McLean at centre back? I'll grant you it may be an emergency option given he's done it at club level now if he happens to be already on the pitch and we're out of subs or something in extra time but how many centre backs are we planning to lose? We're already debating which of the SEVEN in the current squad isn't going to get picked without needing to see Kenny McLean shoehorned in there too! I'm just not seeing that as being something we need to learn about deliberately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streets of Raith Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 17 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said: I'm not sure why we'd want to see McLean at centre back? I'll grant you it may be an emergency option given he's done it at club level now if he happens to be already on the pitch and we're out of subs or something in extra time but how many centre backs are we planning to lose? We're already debating which of the SEVEN in the current squad isn't going to get picked without needing to see Kenny McLean shoehorned in there too! I'm just not seeing that as being something we need to learn about deliberately. I understand your point of view. The argument would be that it is not an orthodox centre back role, and we don't presently have a like for like replacement when Tierney is injured. Mclean as a natural midfielder would potentially be the next best option there. We probably wouldn't start him there, but if Tierney cramped up in extra time of a knockout round, it would be better to have at least tried it first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 1 minute ago, Streets of Raith said: I understand your point of view. The argument would be that it is not an orthodox centre back role, and we don't presently have a like for like replacement when Tierney is injured. Mclean as a natural midfielder would potentially be the next best option there. We probably wouldn't start him there, but if Tierney cramped up in extra time of a knockout round, it would be better to have at least tried it first. Well that presupposes you actively want to promote a left sided centre half being someone who can overlap his wing back and contribute to the attack. I'd argue we have that system only because it was the way of getting Robertson and Tierney in the same team and it's worked out very well. Equally, having McTominay do similar on the other side of defence met with 'mixed' success. If Tierney's unavailable he's almost certainly put McKenna in as left sided centre back as he has done countless times before. Like Hendry, McKenna is relatively comfortable on the ball and capable of bringing it out albeit he's clearly no Tierney. Basically for me it's "not an orthodox role" because Tierney makes it so, not because it IS an unorthodox role we need to have someone play. If we have no Tierney we surely just go back to playing with orthodox centre backs like we did in Ukraine (or in Poland v Ukraine anyway), etc? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 4 hours ago, ahemps said: I think he knows everything he needs to about his keepers at this point, the only thing he might want to see is how Gordon is after his injury but I don't know what he learns from Kelly as 4th choice. There is absolutely no point in pissing off a regular squad member by dropping them for the final double header before the tournament. It's easier to keep them all involved and then only make a decision about which three to take if he actually has to. Any one of them could be unavailable come June anyway making the whole discussion moot. If one of the three forwards in the current squad got injured I'm not even 100% sure he'd definitely call up another (assuming Brown isn't back fit), because he'd have Christie in mind as being another option in an attacking role. Edited March 13 by craigkillie 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendricks Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 5 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: I dont think thats obvious at all. I'm not sure what the basis for assuming Souttar is ahead of Cooper (never mind Taylor for that matter). Souttar been consistently the 6th pick centre back over the last 2 or 3 years. He's 100% been behind Cooper in the thinking. Granted Cooper's barely kicked a ball this season and Souttar's got more minutes in him but he's not an automatic pick for Rangers either with Balogun often preferred. We'll only find out if all the other five avoid injury but I suspect Cooper would still be picked over Souttar if it comes to it. You love to be the contrarian but you are rarely proven correct! Souttar is playing regularly, and playing well, getting fitter and will undoubtedly be ahead of Cooper who is getting no game time for Leeds, something that is unlikely to change unless there are injuries. He has played in big games for Clarke before and I actually believe will be in the running for a starting spot against Germany, should he remain fit, never mind being in the squad. The only reason he hasn't been a regular starter is because of his horrendous injury record, he's clearly a better player than the likes of Porteous when available. So I could easily see him jumping ahead of the likes of Porteous, McKenna and even Hanley. If there are no injuries between no and the end of the season then Cooper for me is most likely of the central defenders to miss out entirely. Edited March 13 by Hendricks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 4 minutes ago, Hendricks said: You love to be the contrarian but you are rarely proven correct! Souttar is playing regularly, and playing well, getting fitter and will undoubtedly be ahead of Cooper who is getting no game time for Leeds, something that is unlikely to change unless there are injuries. He has played in big games for Clarke before and I actually believe will be fun the running for a starting spot against Germany, should he remain fit, never mind being in teh squad. I could easily see him jumping ahead of the likes of Porteous and McKenna. If there are no injuries between no and the end of teh season then Cooper for me is most likely of the central defenders to miss out. Rarely proven correct? My opinion differs from yours. That's fine, we're allowed to have different opinions. I don't see how that makes it contrary. I suspect you'll be in the minority in thinking Souttar's a lock for the squad. You're fond of definitive language here like "obviously" and "undoubtedly". Neither's the case though. You may be right but at this stage it's neither obvious, nor undoubted. You're talking about a player who has seven caps in his lifetime, only one of them in the last 12 months (a 12 minute sub appearance v Georgia). The only particularly meaningful game he's ever started for Clarke was the Denmark game he scored in. A game Hendry and Hanley were unavailable for and before Porteous came into the frame (he was on the bench for it but hadn't made an appearance at that point). Cooper also played that night, both being preferred to McKenna. The suggestion he's a potential starter v Germany seems a big reach. Jumping ahead of either McKenna or Porteous, even if possible, doesn;t directly get him in the first eleven either though there are those who'd suggest Porteous is a first pick now. Personally I think if everyone's fully fit he'll play Hanley between Tierney and Hendry. Cooper's lack of match action for Leeds is a concern and might end up being a deciding factor in seeing Souttar get the nod (I still think it's conceivable both will miss out for Jack but he'll have to play some regular football too for that to happen). If for argument's sake Cooper played regularly the rest of the season for Leeds I think he'd get the nod as he has more regularly in the past. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 17 minutes ago, Hendricks said: You love to be the contrarian but you are rarely proven correct! Souttar is playing regularly, and playing well, getting fitter and will undoubtedly be ahead of Cooper who is getting no game time for Leeds, something that is unlikely to change unless there are injuries. He has played in big games for Clarke before and I actually believe will be in the running for a starting spot against Germany, should he remain fit, never mind being in the squad. The only reason he hasn't been a regular starter is because of his horrendous injury record, he's clearly a better player than the likes of Porteous when available. So I could easily see him jumping ahead of the likes of Porteous, McKenna and even Hanley. If there are no injuries between no and the end of the season then Cooper for me is most likely of the central defenders to miss out entirely. I have to hand it to you. You're loyalty to current or former Heart's players is admirable. What team do you support? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendricks Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 8 minutes ago, 2426255 said: I have to hand it to you. You're loyalty to current or former Heart's players is admirable. What team do you support? What part of my assessment don't you agree with? No doubt the part whereby I say I think Souttar might start ahead of McKenna!!!! By the way, are there any Aberdeen players in the squad? Edited March 13 by Hendricks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 1 hour ago, craigkillie said: There is absolutely no point in pissing off a regular squad member by dropping them for the final double header before the tournament. It's easier to keep them all involved and then only make a decision about which three to take if he actually has to. Any one of them could be unavailable come June anyway making the whole discussion moot. If one of the three forwards in the current squad got injured I'm not even 100% sure he'd definitely call up another (assuming Brown isn't back fit), because he'd have Christie in mind as being another option in an attacking role. In what way would it piss them off? 3 keepers is the norm. I expect all the keepers know that. Kelly has always been the 3rd choice and probably expected to be dropped now Gordon is back fit. Do you think McRorie should be in here as well because he used to be 3rd choice and he may be upset now? There may be an outfield player who has missed out on this squad pissed off because there is a 4th keeper. Being picked for fringe players like Ralston, Hyam, Doig, Brown etc. are selected and dropped regularly, do we need to protect the feelings of the these guys? I am sure Kelly is big enough to accept he is a fringe player and if not picked this time but selected next time he would still be happy to turn up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) Matches v NI and Finland live on BBC. Been a while since a Scotland friendly was shown on council telly, outside the occasional England match. Can count on one hand the Scotland matches shown for free in last 20 years Surely heads will roll at the SFA for allowing this to happen. Edited March 13 by sparky88 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 23 minutes ago, ahemps said: There may be an outfield player who has missed out on this squad pissed off because there is a 4th keeper. There isn't a size limit on friendly squads. I don't understand why you're linking the number of goalkeepers called up to the rest of the squad. I don't see the logic. Edited March 13 by 2426255 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 2 hours ago, ahemps said: In what way would it piss them off? 3 keepers is the norm. I expect all the keepers know that. Kelly has always been the 3rd choice and probably expected to be dropped now Gordon is back fit. Do you think McRorie should be in here as well because he used to be 3rd choice and he may be upset now? There may be an outfield player who has missed out on this squad pissed off because there is a 4th keeper. Being picked for fringe players like Ralston, Hyam, Doig, Brown etc. are selected and dropped regularly, do we need to protect the feelings of the these guys? I am sure Kelly is big enough to accept he is a fringe player and if not picked this time but selected next time he would still be happy to turn up. 1 hour ago, 2426255 said: There isn't a size limit on friendly squads. I don't understand why you're linking the number of goalkeepers called up to the rest of the squad. I don't see the logic. Yeah, the Gordon situation is pretty unique. If any other player was his age and having played 3 matches in 15 months we wouldn't be having this discussion. He wouldn't be given a passing thought and Kelly would be the 3rd keeper. He's Craig Gordon though. He's been our best goalkeeper for a long time. He's earned the right for a little latitude. I actually think the assumption that he'll go to Germany and Kelly won't is a little flawed to be honest. I think if the squad had to be named tomorrow Kelly would be in it. The notion we'll take a 41 year old with 3 90 minutes under his belt in 15 months and is second choice at his club to the Euros is a little farcical, and if it wasn't him it wouldn't even be a question. I think Clark may put him in against Northern Ireland to have a look at him but he'll be looking to him to play more regular football ahead of Germany to be included. Kenny Miller on BBC Scotland last night was saying he would be surprised if two Hearts keepers go to Germany. I still think they might but Naismith's going to have to give Gordon more game time than a likely one more Scottish Cup tie to get him there. Edited March 13 by Skyline Drifter 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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