btb Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, StellarHibee said: 1. The tories could have been nazi-sympathisers under Cameron and the Lib Dems would have still jumped into bed with them for the power trip. 2. They're not exactly the party of sensibility and decency that they try to portray. 1. I disagree, in the aftermath of the 2010 GE the PLP still contained plenty of senior members tainted with the Iraq War plus any anti-Tory coalition would've had to include the various Celtic parties, at least informally - Cameron's Tories offered a surface level of decency. 2. One of the features of the Lib-Dems vote in the last 30-40 years is that many of the seats they are strong in down South are natural Tory seats where they are being used in Nimby stylee tactical voting to warn the Tories which IMO (and I've absolutely no evidence to back this up) results in these MPs being skewed in number towards the right of their party and having to avoid saying anything that might be considered left-wing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 38 minutes ago, btb said: 1. I disagree, in the aftermath of the 2010 GE the PLP still contained plenty of senior members tainted with the Iraq War plus any anti-Tory coalition would've had to include the various Celtic parties, at least informally - Cameron's Tories offered a surface level of decency. 2. One of the features of the Lib-Dems vote in the last 30-40 years is that many of the seats they are strong in down South are natural Tory seats where they are being used in Nimby stylee tactical voting to warn the Tories which IMO (and I've absolutely no evidence to back this up) results in these MPs being skewed in number towards the right of their party and having to avoid saying anything that might be considered left-wing. 1. The tories backed the PLP all the way in the Iraq Wars as did the Lib Dems. 2. I would argue that it has nothing to do with warning the tories of anything, but rather positioning themselves in the hope of future hung parliaments where either Labour or the tories require them to hold the balance of power. I truly believe the Lib Dems will back any policies regardless of how harmful they are as long as it gets them a foot in the door. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 10 minutes ago, StellarHibee said: 1. The tories backed the PLP all the way in the Iraq Wars as did the Lib Dems. 2. I would argue that it has nothing to do with warning the tories of anything, but rather positioning themselves in the hope of future hung parliaments where either Labour or the tories require them to hold the balance of power. I truly believe the Lib Dems will back any policies regardless of how harmful they are as long as it gets them a foot in the door. 1. Granted but it was Labour who were in power at the time of the Second Iraq War and they who came out of it with a tarnished reputation. 2. The Lib-Dems are a sorta Frankenstein party with in a schizophrenic manifesto of policies half of which can be ignored depending on which of the major parties they are trying to ally with. As an aside are the Lib-Dems any worse than Starmer's iteration of the Labour party on rowing away from left-wing policies to win power? **************** Having said that I still feel that Cameron's government had a veneer of centre facing policies especially on Social Issues which attracted the Lib-Dems and gave them enough reason to enter a coalition in 2010 even with it's brutal austerity policies which probably weren't unattractive to the right-wing side of Lib-Dems. Sticking with the Tories till 2015 shows their love of Ministerial cars overshadowed any commitment to social equality. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 All parties are a coalition of sorts. The Labour Party includes MPs who love Jeremy Corbyn and those who despise him. The Lib Dems has had members who lean left and those who lean right - for example Charles Kennedy and Nick Clegg. Similarly the Tory Party has MPs who believe in a small state, light touch government but are not interested in the culture wars or hostility to immigrants and so on, while it also has MPs who could easily defect to UKIP. I think FPTP distorts things totally. The threat from UKIP means the Tories have to move further right. When we were in Europe, the Tories did not belong to the Centre-Right Group but went for a more xenophobic lot. That was to appease the Tory/UKIP vote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Fullerene said: All parties are a coalition of sorts. The Labour Party includes MPs who love Jeremy Corbyn and those who despise him. The Lib Dems has had members who lean left and those who lean right - for example Charles Kennedy and Nick Clegg. Similarly the Tory Party has MPs who believe in a small state, light touch government but are not interested in the culture wars or hostility to immigrants and so on, while it also has MPs who could easily defect to UKIP. I think FPTP distorts things totally. The threat from UKIP means the Tories have to move further right. When we were in Europe, the Tories did not belong to the Centre-Right Group but went for a more xenophobic lot. That was to appease the Tory/UKIP vote. I heard Charles Kennedy leaned all ways as the evening progressed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 On 10/06/2023 at 08:14, DeeTillEhDeh said: There always has been but with the rise of UKIP it's pretty obvious that the Tories have moved to the right. The whole political positioning has moved to the right. All parties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zern Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 5 hours ago, btb said: As an aside are the Lib-Dems any worse than Starmer's iteration of the Labour party on rowing away from left-wing policies to win power? Lib Dem pledges and Tory targets. They've become the thing they once hated. The "Green investment pledge" has now been reduced. It was supposed to be a 28bn a year Green infrastructure and investment programme. Rachel Reeves said it would last for a decade. Not any more. Something something to begin in the latter part of the 1st term with a total of 28bn in expenditure over its existence. It is no way as ambitious as the IRA that inspired it. "securinomics" as Rachel would say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1668693777848868876?t=oBytVX_5dz4m5jXqE6sqpQ&s=19 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Just now, doulikefish said: https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1668693777848868876?t=oBytVX_5dz4m5jXqE6sqpQ&s=19 You couldn't make it up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 What a county. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 13 hours ago, doulikefish said: https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1668693777848868876?t=oBytVX_5dz4m5jXqE6sqpQ&s=19 Starmer will do anything to avoid giving "soft on crime" ammo to the Tories after accusing Sunak of keeping paedo rapists out of jail. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 32 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Starmer will do anything to avoid giving "soft on crime" ammo to the Tories after accusing Sunak of keeping paedo rapists out of jail. Or there's just a unilateral agenda at Westminster to turn the UK into the ultimate police state. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soapy FFC Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 I'm unclear, do these new powers apply to Scotland, or just England Wales. I've glanced through the text of the SI used but can't really get my headt round it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlandmagar Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Labour almost as repugnant as the Tories. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zern Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 21 minutes ago, Soapy FFC said: I'm unclear, do these new powers apply to Scotland, or just England Wales. I've glanced through the text of the SI used but can't really get my headt round it. UK legislation. Public Order Act. Govt uses a statutory amendment to change the definition of the main legislation by the back door. Green/LibDem/ind table a Fatal Motion to prevent this. Labour abstain. Tories win. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soapy FFC Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Zern said: UK legislation. Public Order Act. Govt uses a statutory amendment to change the definition of the main legislation by the back door. Green/LibDem/ind table a Fatal Motion to prevent this. Labour abstain. Tories win. I quickly read this. There are several bits where it says not in Scotland, so I was just trying to figure out the impact on us. https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1668898789275455489 Edited June 14, 2023 by Soapy FFC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zern Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 16 minutes ago, Soapy FFC said: I quickly read this. There are several bits where it says not in Scotland, so I was just trying to figure out the impact on us. https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1668898789275455489 Not certain with how that might affect Scotland specifically. Will complicate things. From what i understand the Public Order Act passed prior to the Coronation. In order for it to pass the House of Lards, amendments were made, certain things were taken out or clarified. What happened here was the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman used a statutory instrument to put back parts that were removed by the upper house without debate in either. The Fatal motion was intended to prevent her amendments from happening. This is same bill that Starmer said he 'wants to bed in" by the way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 37 minutes ago, Zern said: House of Lards Nice! That Thornberry quote sounds perilously close to the naivety displayed by the Democrats in America, obsessed by playing by the rules only for the opposition to screw them over at every turn. Although, much like America, the issue is likely more that Labour isn't really terribly fussed about right-wing policies being enacted now, and they're hoping to be able to use the Lords as an excuse for doing nothing in a few years' time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zern Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Thornberry is turning into their very own version of Coffey. Saw her on a podcast with Nish Kumar and she was utterly tone deaf to some of the issues around race. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamthebam Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 5 hours ago, Soapy FFC said: I'm unclear, do these new powers apply to Scotland, or just England Wales. I've glanced through the text of the SI used but can't really get my headt round it. England and Wales only on the face of it. Scots Criminal law is a devolved matter (and we've had a separate legal system even after 1707) and looking at the Act it mentions a lot of English laws and acts. When there is a cross UK Act e.g. Proceeds of Crime Act 2003 it usually has separate Scottish sections within the Act 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.