Tannadeechee
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Posts posted by Tannadeechee
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3 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
I don't care enough. They posted 3m of debt and paid a fortune for Shankland.
Yes and it's not just Hearts, it's Hearts, PARTICK THISTLE and STRANRAER. Although you wouldn't know it if you read the coverage. We're the biggest so we get the heat. So are D Utd. Welcome to what we've been putting up with for months.
No we didn't, shankland isn't the top earner and last.season wasn't in the top 4 earners at the club. Again devoid of facts.
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Just now, 8GamesToGo said:
So you don't think that the SPFL could have held off calling the league for a month? The gov has put dates on things and backtracked a few times during this whole thing (schools returning for example). It's an evolving situation which is why it would have been prudent to delay a decision longer.
NO. It has been explained countless times. Clubs could not furlough staff untill they knew the leagues were over. Clubs, not all granted, were begging for the money as they still had costs to pay for with NO money coming in.
We have only had permission for contact training for less than two weeks. The Scot Government also said originally NO FOOTBALL BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. Again for what feels like an eternity asking without an answer WHEN WOULD THE GAMES BE PLAYED????
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1 minute ago, 8GamesToGo said:
From the BBC today
Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers have asked Scottish Premiership clubs to pledge £5,000 each towards their costs as they defend legal action taken by Hearts and Partick Thistle.
Championship clubs have been asked to pledge £2,000 each, with League One and League Two sides asked for £1,000.
2 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said:What's your view on D Utd owned by wealthy American oil magnate asking for £1,000 each from part-time league two clubs without two pennies to rub together in the middle of a recession a few months after Utd bought themselves a title by going into 3m of debt then sealing promotion by voting for it?
See bold. See point one on previous reply. I'll say it again, that is utter bollocks. I could.explain, but I fear putting more facts in front of you will go the same way as all the other ones. It has also been commented on by myself and others many times explaining the situation at United.
I also point out the answer to my second point, this is not Dundee United. This is Dundee United, RAITH ROVERS and COVE RANGERS. RR have already said this could be extremely dangerous. We do not know the deal between the 3 clubs.
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Just now, 8GamesToGo said:
A lot of people throughout the game think there should be fewer professional teams in a country Scotland's size. I agree it's worth looking at full-time teams only in the SPFL and helping clubs do that collectively. Part-time teams can still play in their communities and aim o become full-time and progress through the pyramid but that's another debate.
If there's going to be one less club, which I hope not, I think there are other more likely contenders.
What's your view on D Utd owned by wealthy American oil magnate asking for £1,000 each from part-time league two clubs without two pennies to rub together in the middle of a recession a few months after Utd bought themselves a title by going into 3m of debt then sealing promotion by voting for it?
One that's utter bollocks
Two Raith Rovers have said this could finish them. This is not DU but DU ,RR and Cove. It is also something that may well have repercussions for many clubs.
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36 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
We'll agree to disagree overall. My opinions are obviously clouded by my loyalties but some of you need to accept yours are as well.
It's absurd for you to defend the SPFL like this given (depending on France and Belgium) Scotland is heading for being possibly the only top flight league to relegate clubs during the pandemic and one of the few not to play to a finish. IN fact right now as things still seem to be in flux in Belgium and France we might actually be the only one right now. Top flight league.
But you are right they wouldn't do things differently. Their arrogance is incredible.
That is wrong for a start. The French Prime Minister, you know the head of the French Government, states categorically that there would be NO SPORTING EVENTS INDOORS OR OUTDOORS until September.
This means that no matter the one club still threatening court action does, the league cannot be finished. The only reason the French situation was passed back by the courts originally was that there had been no vote. There now has been a vote and 74.49% voted NO to expanding the league. Again like Scotland, pretty cut and dried.
As as been pointed out until everyone is driven demented stating this fact, excuse my bluntness. With regards what other countries are doing, who gives a f**k?? It is completely an utterly irrelevant. As quite frankly what foreign countries with different legal systems do with their courts, completely f**k all relevance to us. Our administrative authorities, Scot Gov in Edinburgh, banned us from playing football, the medical opinion at the time, and Government rumblings was, there may be no football untill 2021. Our football clubs COULD NOT AFFORD to hang on untill then without their money from league. SPFL put forward.a proposal agreed by 81% (EIGHTY ONE PERCENT) of clubs. If it was a poor resolution they could have voted it down and proposed something different. 81% of clubs did not think this way and voted for the resolution.
A few weeks later the Premiership was called.as the Government & medical opinion was it could not be played.
As it turns out with UEFA's 3rd of August deadline and Scottish Government not allowing games to finish this, it definitely would not have been possible, see Northern Ireland situation.
Again I could not give one flying iota of a f**k about France, England, Belgium,Italy, Croatia, Sweden, Turkey, Guatemala, Argentina etc. I am only concerned with Scotland, SFA and SPFL & what they have been allowed to do by Scottish Government. Have SPFL and SFA rules been followed. From my point of view they have. Whether you agree with those rules that is a separate issue. All other not Scottish situations can f**k off, once fucked off, f**k off some more back to the corner of "fucking irrelevance"
BTW I'm sure this will be red dotted too by the Phantom Red Dotter himself. Bring it on!
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15 hours ago, 8GamesToGo said:
What option did she have? Even Neil Doncaster said he thought there was support. Quite a number of clubs are quoted as saying they were surprised how little support there was in the end. Anonymous sources were quoted in the Record saying some chairmen had decided they wouldn't vote for anything that benefitted Caley. It seems to have been a total charade.
That has been explained.
Hearts, ICT and Rangers tried to have the leagues voided. The Record reported this. ICT Chairman put out a statement in very strong terms rubbishing it. Dave McKinnon confirmed it along with 5 other Championship clubs. ICT have been very quiet since. This is what lost Budge any goodwill in Championship. Again a more friendly approach, listening to Championship clubs fears and hopes and taken on board these would have helped greatly, rather than trying to steamroller a null & void solution initially.
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2 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
I agree. They acted like total p***ks. Imagine how they would have acted if they'd been 4 pts behind Rangers and the league was stopped with Dundee's vote being "caught in a spam folder".
Again for what seems like the 1 millionth time, it was not caught in a spam folder, it was caught by something far more complicated, far more advanced and at a far different level. It was caught by a mail protection system. I provided a link earlier for you to read. It is not a conspiracy, it is not a strange occurrence, it is not an unheard of scenario. It is something that is extremely common. I know I work and have worked in various IT based roles for over 20 years and have worked with these systems.
It is only an issue for those ignorant of these systems, anyone else its an "and?..." moment.
It is in the Deloitte report,clubs have seen this. Deloitte had access to system logs etc. As far as the IT side of this, unless you are accusing Deloitte of being corrupt and party to a conspiracy and/or corruption, then it's a non issue.
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3 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
See when Celtic went ape shit over a referee making a bad decision and lying or whatever it was? Should they just have accepted what they thought was wrong and unfair?
Yes, because.if it was the Tannadice incident, the on the pitch outcome was correct. May have been some shenanigans with the report, but the on pitch decision was correct. My sympathies were minimal due to the fact their heads would have gone years ago if they had to put up with the decisions the rest of use have to put with against them!
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13 hours ago, 8GamesToGo said:
I have no clue. They protested the decision (or squealed like pigs as Chick Young would say) and didn't just sit down and take their pain and move on or whatever fans of other clubs and the media have been telling us to do for several months. What I take out of it is if you think you have been treated unfairly you have every right to stand up for yourself. They won and we might not. Doesn't change the fact we have the right to have a go without being accused of trying to bring down Scottish football.
You could have asked to go to arbitration as per SFA rule 99 (I my have that rule number wrong) 3-4 weeks ago. Without serving SPFL, United, Rovers and Cove. Without the expense of the Court of Session. All that has happened is a vast amount of money has been spent, even more ill will created,clubs threatend with promotions rescinded. Could all have been avoided if it went to arbitration ages ago saving all of that.
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22 minutes ago, rainbowrising said:
If the arbitration panel was to base their decision on a league that has feck all to do with Scottish football it would be a major dereliction of their job at hand. Complete irrelevance.
Never mind a completely different legal system and laws.
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1 minute ago, Szamo's_Ammo said:
How long before Les signs up to P&B?
He has, he has been posting since last night!
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8 minutes ago, stumigoo said:
Looks increasingly likely that both Forrest and McCulloch will be leaving.
Looks like it, this was Scott Burns on Twitter to another United fan.
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13 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:
Was the "Dundee vote" not simply one for agreeing that PPG would be used if the season couldnt be completed?
No the Dundee vote was the one that called the Champ down there and then by PPG and gave the SPFL the power to call Prem later if it couldn't be finished.
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1 hour ago, 8GamesToGo said:
Contact games have been announced as possibly starting this Saturday. Just thought it was relevant to the debate.
If all these fans of clubs who voted themselves out of relegation trouble or to get their titles early want to believe there was no way to play the remaining games or to get some sort of temporary reconstruction done that didn't harm any clubs much more than others then that's up to them. Lord Clark said we have a case so we'll find something out one way or the other.
It is, it shows that we might have had 2 weeks to play 8 games. Then have difficulty in scheduling next season due to Euros, penalties to Sky and the other myriad of reasons already put forward.
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33 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
We're going to court over that Dundee vote so it is kind of key to this whole thing. It wasn't this cut and dried sensible and considered decision it's been made out to be. It was an absolute shitshow. All very avoidable by just taking a breath, resisting the pressure we all know Celtic were putting on the league, and seeing how things panned out for a few more weeks while at the same time planning for a few different potential scenarios.
Your not, it's multiple "reasons".
The Dundee vote is entirely legal. As per The Companies Act 2006. Besides why Dundee? Why not one of the other no voting clubs? Why Dundee?
The above act gives 28 days for votes. The Friday deadline was a request, not legally enforceable. As per the act "no" votes are irrelevant, all that is required is the number of yes votes at the end of 28 days. In other votes around Scotland people who haven't voted yes will be spoken to to try and get them to agree, they can think for themselves and if convinced that can vote, if not they don't.
That is EXACTLY what happened in this case. The email being caught in email protection system is very common. For further information on one of these try
https://www.trustwave.com/en-us/services/technology/secure-email-gateway/
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1 hour ago, 8GamesToGo said:
I'm sure he was delighted. This narrative that Hearts are targeting D Utd is ridiculous. There were other solutions that would have avoided this. D Utd voted against those. This is all on the SPFL and the clubs that voted out of self interest to end the league earlier than it needed to be ended and then refused to seriously engage with other options.
I'm sorry but this post deserves this
Hearts and PTFC are doing what they are doing for self interest and nothing more. Ann Budget's reconstruction plan was self interest.
If Ann Budge had seriously engaged with others, come up with a decent alternative that was not badly written due to being rushed through, reconstruction might have been voted through. This is a blinder played.by Ann Budge, to cover up fact that after admin, she has the club viable only with donations, over spent on a badly run and managed new stand project, played poorly end of 2018/19 played relegation form 2019/20. Had a squad that was over paid, under talented with no application, managed by someone who had lost objectivity.
Again WHAT OTHER solutions? It's like someone stopping at a red light, and a 3rd party saying
"you didn't have to stop". Well it's a red light not allowed to go through it,
"you had other options", like what it's a red light.
" But other option". OK what were they?
Repeat ad nauseam
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1 minute ago, 8GamesToGo said:
Dunno. Maybe someone can call up a club or league elsewhere and ask them how they did it, maybe write a big article on it all, including getting the SPFL's thoughts and the other clubs. Shame they've all disappeared. Anyhow, my point isn't just that restarting was an option (I believe) it's also that it should have been explored more fully. Reconstruction definitely could have happened though.
I get that, but again, if you believe that restarting was an option, you MUST have ideas how that could have been done? Even taking into account things that have been brought up that you hadn't thought of, you must have some ideas.
This thread has been for the purpose of discussing these sorts of things. Anybody saying this or that has been asked to give their views. I believe that between null and void and current situation, the current situation was preferable.
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5 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
Null and void is horrible which is why not many leagues have gone for it. I get it's a great laugh watching Hearts doing funny Hearts things but no-one can convince me the decision to end the league wasn't taken way to early and for the wrong reasons, when there were other alternatives that could at least have been discussed.
I get that's how you feel, but genuinely I still have not heard, not just yourself, one viable explanation of HOW. I don't mean "it should be discussed", but how. If people think that calling the leagues (the vote only called Champ down, and give the mandate to call Prem if required) to give struggling clubs cash was too early and the decision weeks after to call the Premiership was too soon,.then they must have ideas as to how and when these games could have been played, considering Scot Gov have said No, Nada, Non, Mien to football. How it could have been afforded. Would this have been all leagues or just some?
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8 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
Point is they went to court to fight their corner like us and PT are doing.
That may be the case, but it will be chucked out. How could Dutch have done anything different? Their government banned football until September.
Same in France. The league did not vote like we did so the courts put it back to the league. The clubs then voted to end league by PPG and that was that. Although action is being raised again by one of the relegated clubs, a vote was taken, majority voted to end. As it was a.democratic vote it is not expected the court action to come to anything.
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3 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
There's a case for null and void based on what happens when matches have to be abandoned. If Dundee Utd are 10-0 up against Dundee with 3 minutes to go and the match is abandoned, it's abandoned. D Utd don't just get the 3 points because they would have won anyhow. Obviously most people have a problem with null and void as it is incredibly unfair on teams going for titles and promotion, which is why I support reconstruction. Despite that, the Dutch went down the null and void route and the world still seems to have kept turning for them.
On top of that, in relation to the SPFL's decision making, we do all know the league never would have been ended like that if Rangers were 4 pts behind Celtic in the league title race right? (Seeing as it seems oK to post alternative scenarios). That's a big deal for anyone, like me, who is sick of the league being run for the OF and one reason why I support making life as difficult for the SPFL as possible. I don't actually think D Utd would have to stay down if we win the case by the way. Like magic, reconstruction would happen.
It would have come down to the votes. If the clubs voted to do it then tough. I agree, but all it would have taken is for clubs to raise them resolution at a meeting and see if it got votes. The pressure from Ibrox and media would have been intense to be fair.
Null and void. would have been a disaster after 75% of league played. There are other sporting precedents though from other sports when events are shortened.
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10 hours ago, 8GamesToGo said:
Wonder if right now fans in Belgium, France and Netherlands are posting crying emojis in response to posts by Lyon, Utrecht, Toulouse, Amiens, Waasland-Beveren... fans for going to court, sorry for being shite. Probably I suppose.
Problem is nothing the Dutch football authorities could do as
"FC Utrecht was sixth in the Netherlands Eredivisie when Prime Minister Mark Rutte announced on Friday that all major events would be cancelled until September, prompting the Dutch Football Association to call off this season."
So even if the league was continued as it was passed UEFA's deadline of 3rd August Utrecht could not have played in Europe anyway.
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15 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
Exactly. The least amount of harm would have been reconstruction if finishing the league wasn't possible. Everyone who would have been promoted and some who might not have been promoted got promoted, everyone who should have been relegated and some who might not have been relegated does not get relegated, and the non-league clubs coming up. For absolute fairness they could even have ran a mini playoff tournament when everything was allowed again. I fail to see how that is not the better solution for more clubs.
People have an issue with Raith's promotion due to Falkirk. But being consistent then why is it Kelty Hearts should be in a position to have been able to play a playoff to see if they could play another playoff to see if they got promoted. They were 6pts ahead of Bonnyrigg Rose who had a game in hand and 5 games to go.
Problem again is when though?
Reconstruction might have had more chance if Budge had spoken to lower league clubs, listened to other clubs and tried to get a solution for Scottish football not Hearts. Some clubs only wanted temp reconstruction, some permanent. The details of 14-10-10-10 were poor. The 6-8 split was poor especially after only 2 rounds ( personally the split of any sort can GTF IMHO). Sky needs to agree with reconstruction as they have paid for 12-10-10-10. The 14-10-10-10 leaves "dead rubbers" clubs were due to sign up to 250-350000 less per season over the length of time the leagues were running with 14. Also had the potential of 3 clubs being relegated while trying to budget for competing in Premiership. It was a poor resolution that was "rushed through".
Also as as been said if Hearts, ICT & Rangers hadn't tried to null & void the leagues, as confirmed by 6 Championship clubs, which led to Scot Gardiner and ICT in general.going very quiet, they might have had more of a chance of some of those clubs being more friendly.
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15 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:
Or find a solution that works for everyone in a weird one-off situation?
Bottom line is it's not just about Hearts anyhow as everyone seems to conveniently ignore.
Your right 16 teams have lost out on potential promotion playoff places. Some gave them up knowingly, because they felt what they were doing was for the best. Making the best of a bad situation, to do the least amount of harm to the least amount of teams as possible.
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3 minutes ago, 8GamesToGo said:16 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said:
What part of we are not allowed to play football because Government will not allow it is difficult to understand?
I am happy to debate, you are putting forward no intelligent alternatives. Just saying what about them, what about them isn't intelligent in the slightest.
If want to debate that is fine, TRY IT. Specifics. I'll try and help you...
Clubs were struggling for cash
The cash made no difference. In any case, is the solution to plunge 3 clubs into more financial distress or spread it around?
Clubs had been lobbying SPFL for a solution
Where are the options all laid out for everyone to see. Clubs said they had no time to consider the Resolution, It was rushed.
Clubs could not afford to pay staff with no fans ie no income coming in
Yes, and. Same for everyone. The prize money could possibly have come to them anyhow. Or so I believe form Hearts and PT's court petition.
Government banned them (effectively) from playing.
Yes. but they didn't order them to call the league.
New Sky contract complicated things, we had to start or pay penalties
Did it? I don't know. We'll find out hopefully when documents are released.
If clubs weren't shut down and had to stay in training, they couldn't furlough staff.
How did other countries manage then? All clubs could have played at the same fitness level.
EPL is playing behind closed doors but still have to pay very large penalties to broadcasters
As have we anyhow, so why not just play if we're paying to end the league anyhow?
As it turns out the deadline to have leagues finished for European competition is August 3rd
yes, and my view is we could have finished.
We do NOT have permission by Government to play football, behind closed doors or otherwise.
Doesn't mean we couldn't have put together a plan to make it happen, like other countries did. All industries have been lobbying governments non stop.
It was at the time suspected that lockdown would continue untill January.
Yes. Still didn't have to end the league.
Many thought we would have no football in 2020.
We might still not have any football.
Hearts asked players to take wage cuts. In light of this how could they pay for the necessary arrangements to play football.
How did all the other leagues manage it. how would I know? All I know is many other leagues including smaller clubs than ours contains have managed it.
There's some starting points. Try debating them with sensible counter arguments that fit into what is and what is not allowed by our Government.
Sorry I missed you wanted me to reply to each point. There you go. I'm ok with you disagreeing. I know as much as you do. The arbitration might reveal more around broadcasting and the whole process.
Thank you,.it wasn't difficult, much better at least can see where you may be coming from. That sort of thing would have far better engagement from others.
My answers
Cash did make a difference. Maybe not to Hearts (other reasons for that) but many of the other 41 clubs were desperate for it.
We aren't party to the discussions, but other clubs have said there were lobbying of SPFL to release funds. The money to the bottom.amount each club could have received had already been handed out. According to SPFL rules (Budge disagrees, but nothing we can see shows her.point of view, that's not to say it's wrong but disagreed by many) the rest could only be paid out if leagues were finished.
If.clubs could not pay staff and players you could not continue league.as.clubs could not afford it.
Government banned them from playing. Therefore they COULDN'T finish league. Only way under lockdown it could have been done is all players, club staff, referees were isolated in hotels. All at great expense. Not sure where they'd train. All this while no money was coming in. How much would this cost?
Would this have been required for part the leagues? Remember league 1 and 2 are pretty much part time and players may well be employed in essential worker roles and could not do this.
The documents ARE NOT being released. They are only being made available to the arbitration panel and those involved in it. Any publication of these.documents.will in effect be contempt of court. This is in Lord Clark's ruling.
The EPL is paying back Sky and BT even though they are continuing. They also can't afford not to due to the sums involved. We have paid back money to Sky, BT, and BBC. It was cheaper, it is believed than the penalties involved if new contract delayed.
The Scottish clubs couldn't afford to play. Even with players furloughed, clubs are still struggling.
Other countries have different rules and different government rules. Other countries have far larger TV deals, meaning the clubs aren't living hand to mouth.
If the government will not allow us to play, players are not allowed to train if furloughed (clubs could not afford to not furlough players, see Hearts and other clubs wage cuts) UEFA deadline, when would the games be played? Can't just say.could have played them, when?
We have been speaking to government. Government has said no. See one of many reports
Scot Gov still has not allowed us to play in August yet.
Other leagues are allowing fans in. Other countries have lifted lockdowns.
France have finished and nothing the clubs could do about it, they were banned.by Government from playing
"The Ligue 2 season is also over after French Prime Minister Edouard Philippe announced no sporting events, even those behind closed doors, could take place before September."
If league could be finished, at least give an idea how it could have been finished. Much better debating.
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League Reconstruction 20/21 season
in Scottish Premiership General Chatter
Posted · Edited by Tannadeechee