The Falkirk FC Thread

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, LatapyBairn. said:

You’re correct actually, I’m man enough to admit when I’m wrong and that part was divisive so my apologies. I will edit it. However the rest I stick by. 

Thanks but if you do stick by the rest then please answer this, did the FSS seek the majority opinion of members on whether the money it had in the bank should be handed over to the club for no shares in return? 

[LatapyBairn.]

9 minutes ago, Van_damage said:

Thanks but if you do stick by the rest then please answer this, did the FSS seek the majority opinion of members on whether the money it had in the bank should be handed over to the club for no shares in return? 

Mate I honestly think this is boring people now.  Maybe the FSS should canvas opinions better but we are now splitting hairs. The outcome is the outcome and it’s a good one! Going forward let’s of course explore ways to make the FSS more democratic but there really are bigger fish to fry, I’d love to have more time where I could actively help but the way my life is right now making my monthly donation is all I can do. I see the FSS as a very new thing that will evolve and devolve and develope as it grows, it’s a process and at some point I’d love to be part of that process but in the meantime let’s all just play nice and keep the thing going please! 

Edited September 2, 2023 by LatapyBairn.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Shodwall cat said:

I've not seen anything yet that makes me want to stop putting my cash into FSS and then the club. At the end of the day the club relies on FSS cash to keep going at the moment and give the manager a competitive budget so I wouldn't want to endanger that.  My biggest concern is that the bod is going to end up being the same reps for years with either noone wanting to do it or one group or another constantly appointing the same individuals. I think it's important we have fresh faces in there regularly.

I actually think a little differently.

I think the club could do with more continuity and would be better placed having a chairman who can be a leader and figurehead for the club. Whether that’s a current rep or an independent, I think it would be good to have someone who is ultimately responsible for decisions but with a board of reps to give their opinions and the ability to veto any decisions they think are harmful to the club. The chairman could also bring in other non exec directors to fill any skill shortages.

Then, like you say, the reps can rotate as set out to bring in fresh faces but with less onus on them to run the club.

[AJ1981]

First post and only joined this week because I saw the chat on here about the FSS and waited to post until after the meeting. 

I was there last night and enjoyed it. A room full of people who care deeply about the club. The presenters were clearly nervous and the issues with the microphone made it worse. What I did see was a committee that looks like the Falkirk support (not a bunch of old guys) and a genuine group of people wanting to make FSS a success, they aren't there to be professional presenters and the whole room seemed to be rooting for them to do well. 

What was also clear there's been a massive rift on the committee with one person choosing to resign because he didn't agree with the direction. I guess because the rest of the committee are all there after the resignation it's safe to assume they didn't agree with him.  Shit happens in life and sensible folk should always avoid taking sides before understanding what the argument is about. I listened to both sides and the great comments from other fans, especially the very modest gentleman who spoke right after both opposing sides had their say. I don't know his name but he certainly spoke for me and the people around me.

I understand both points of view, the need for consultation etc, the need for the FSS to be the fans voice and so on. But judging by the reaction in the room and the folk I talked to after, as well as the chat on the way down the stairs, the idea of trade unions and balance sheet loans etc etc all had the feel of a solution in search of a problem.

As was said repeatedly last night the FSS have come from no where to be the majority shareholder, what an achievement.  

The explanation about the final lot of shares made perfect sense to me, the manager gets money for the budget and other fans rally around to give FSS the 25% plus one. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, LatapyBairn. said:

Mate I honestly think this is boring people now.  Maybe the FSS should canvas opinions better but we are now splitting hairs. The outcome is the outcome and it’s a good one! Going forward let’s of course explore ways to make the FSS more democratic but there really are bigger fish to fry, I’d love to have more time where I could actively help but the way my life is right now making my monthly donation is all I can do. I see the FSS as a very new thing that will evolve and devolve and develope as it grows, it’s a process and at some point I’d love to be part of that process but in the meantime let’s all just play nice and keep the thing going please! 

I agree that it is boring people but as you said I couldn’t admit I was wrong I had once again to explain what my issue was. 

The answer to that question was no, which was my issue, the reason for trying to amend it and the the reason for leaving since the decision stood regardless. 

Anyway don’t need to be bother replying mate, it is boring me too now. We’re on the same page with most things so be good to catch up soon and I will let you buy me a pint for calling me an idiot!  

[Jimmy1876]

4 minutes ago, LatapyBairn. said:

Mate I honestly think this is boring people now.  Maybe the FSS should canvas opinions better but we are now splitting hairs.  

Trying to stifle debate just because you don't agree is a really poor look. For someone who says they support democratic fan ownership it's strange to me that you are so intent on dictating conversation on a discussion forum. If you're bored, scroll past and as you said don't reply. Insulting people who care about their club really just devalues your genuinely good arguments. Make your case and then if you want to move on then move on. But you don't get to just decide when everyone else has to be finished with the issue. Really poor. 

In any case, I really think the FSS and board made a mistake by not providing more clarity and simply announcing the board will not be giving more shares. This made it look like an active block of shares by the club and the lack of explanation from the club for weeks made it look significantly worse. There was such a simple solution to this in the immediate days that followed but the silence and secrecy and the stifling of discussion from people who knew the board made this appear very dodgy. 

However, I'm happy with the solution, if FSS get the 25% then that was my main concern and will admit I was wrong that there was an active block. Instead it was just a mistake in communication and hopefully lesson is learned. I am also happy to go with whatever the majority decides with the future, whether it becomes a donation or not. Other clubs do the same and as long as FSS is still a vehicle for fans voices on major issues (as it should have been with this issue) then happy to continue with my membership.

[LatapyBairn.]

7 minutes ago, Jimmy1876 said:

Trying to stifle debate just because you don't agree is a really poor look. For someone who says they support democratic fan ownership it's strange to me that you are so intent on dictating conversation on a discussion forum. If you're bored, scroll past and as you said don't reply. Insulting people who care about their club really just devalues your genuinely good arguments. Make your case and then if you want to move on then move on. But you don't get to just decide when everyone else has to be finished with the issue. Really poor. 

In any case, I really think the FSS and board made a mistake by not providing more clarity and simply announcing the board will not be giving more shares. This made it look like an active block of shares by the club and the lack of explanation from the club for weeks made it look significantly worse. There was such a simple solution to this in the immediate days that followed but the silence and secrecy and the stifling of discussion from people who knew the board made this appear very dodgy. 

However, I'm happy with the solution, if FSS get the 25% then that was my main concern and will admit I was wrong that there was an active block. Instead it was just a mistake in communication and hopefully lesson is learned. I am also happy to go with whatever the majority decides with the future, whether it becomes a donation or not. Other clubs do the same and as long as FSS is still a vehicle for fans voices on major issues (as it should have been with this issue) then happy to continue with my membership.

Ok, thanks for the advice and your probably correct so on this subject count me out now. Away to get drunk and try my best to watch the football at this place, cracking day for it. COYB

Edited September 2, 2023 by LatapyBairn.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, AJ1981 said:

First post and only joined this week because I saw the chat on here about the FSS and waited to post until after the meeting. 

I was there last night and enjoyed it. A room full of people who care deeply about the club. The presenters were clearly nervous and the issues with the microphone made it worse. What I did see was a committee that looks like the Falkirk support (not a bunch of old guys) and a genuine group of people wanting to make FSS a success, they aren't there to be professional presenters and the whole room seemed to be rooting for them to do well. 

What was also clear there's been a massive rift on the committee with one person choosing to resign because he didn't agree with the direction. I guess because the rest of the committee are all there after the resignation it's safe to assume they didn't agree with him.  Shit happens in life and sensible folk should always avoid taking sides before understanding what the argument is about. I listened to both sides and the great comments from other fans, especially the very modest gentleman who spoke right after both opposing sides had their say. I don't know his name but he certainly spoke for me and the people around me.

I understand both points of view, the need for consultation etc, the need for the FSS to be the fans voice and so on. But judging by the reaction in the room and the folk I talked to after, as well as the chat on the way down the stairs, the idea of trade unions and balance sheet loans etc etc all had the feel of a solution in search of a problem.

As was said repeatedly last night the FSS have come from no where to be the majority shareholder, what an achievement.  

The explanation about the final lot of shares made perfect sense to me, the manager gets money for the budget and other fans rally around to give FSS the 25% plus one. 

Just need to comment on this as if it was made out to be mainly about one person then that’s really poor. Everyone has the right to an opinion and if it’s something that most don’t agree with then debate the point and not the man. 

Bear in mind too that all of this, which started with the person resigning, brought attention to something important that may have went unnoticed. Whether it’s concluded in the manner they hoped or not then at least more are aware of the facts. 

This debate has led to the FSS getting the shares it requires quicker(thanks to the efforts of the patrons).

The contract between the club and the FSS being made public.

A bigger understanding of the FSS structure with members and a further sense of being involved to have their say.

If lessons are to be learned and things improved upon for the future then it’s thanks to that person. They actually deserve some credit rather than being denounced by the FSS and board alike. That’s grossly unfair. 

[Zbairn]

Van's, Jimmy's and AJ1981's comments all sum it up for me ! 

agree 100%

 

[AJ1981]

3 minutes ago, Van_damage said:

Just need to comment on this as if it was made out to be mainly about one person then that’s really poor. Everyone has the right to an opinion and if it’s something that most don’t agree with then debate the point and not the man. 

Bear in mind too that all of this, which started with the person resigning, brought attention to something important that may have went unnoticed. Whether it’s concluded in the manner they hoped or not then at least more are aware of the facts. 

This debate has led to the FSS getting the shares it requires quicker(thanks to the efforts of the patrons).

The contract between the club and the FSS being made public.

A bigger understanding of the FSS structure with members and a further sense of being involved to have their say.

If lessons are to be learned and things improved upon for the future then it’s thanks to that person. They actually deserve some credit rather than being denounced by the FSS and board alike. That’s grossly unfair. 

It's disappointing that a factual account of the events and discussions with other fans is being read this way. This is quite a stretch, I'm not attacking anybody.

[Zbairn]

1 minute ago, AJ1981 said:

It's disappointing that a factual account of the events and discussions with other fans is being read this way. This is quite a stretch, I'm not attacking anybody.

Don't think the comment from Van is aimed at you....... but at another poster on here .

Edited September 2, 2023 by Zbairn

[Shodwall cat]

1 hour ago, Kevin James Left Knee said:

All well and good but saying the money will go to a certain aspect of the budget is meaningless. The club will say thank you and just move money out of that budget to the deficit with no significant boost to the playing budget. I am not saying this is wrong (although I am adamant as I said last night that the money should be an interest free loan with it ONLY repaid in the form of shares if the club issues more shares so the FSS percentage is protected as much as possible).

I will continue to support FSS but they are not independent enough from the Board at the moment and they lack ideas or leadership. We all want the same thing but let's not see FSS as only a way or raising money - it has to represent supporters voices too - and while we are doing well people are mostly happy but when things do go wrong a strong FSS will be needed.  It has to be a trade union for fans.

Edit: .... and without that independence we might as well just give up and give the failed Falkirk Forever idea the money and let the Board do what they want. I support this Board and will continue to do so but they have made mistakes and they need to realise the fans alone will not solve the 400,000 deficit. FSS will get 1,000 to 1,200 at most which will be £100,000 a year after loan repayment - that is not enough.  If it is a three legged stool then the other two legs have to help solve that problem too. 

See this is where I get confused. I'm not sure how fss can be independent from the board as surely FSS are part of the board as they have two reps on the bod representing that  organisation and it's views. 

The two reps from fss need to be independent from the other bod members obviously though.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Shodwall cat

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, AJ1981 said:

It's disappointing that a factual account of the events and discussions with other fans is being read this way. This is quite a stretch, I'm not attacking anybody.

I’m commenting on your version of events, not attacking you. 

You said it was made clear that a massive rift occurred because of one person. I’m only saying if that’s true that was brought to light at the meeting then it’s unfair. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Zbairn said:

Don't think the comment from Van is aimed at you....... but at another poster on here .

Wasn’t at AJ or anyone on here but just a notion that one person seemed to be singled out as a troublemaker rather than discussing his point of view. 

As I said if lessons are being learned then sounds like that person may have had a point. 

[Bigbrbairn]

1 hour ago, AJ1981 said:

First post and only joined this week because I saw the chat on here about the FSS and waited to post until after the meeting. 

I was there last night and enjoyed it. A room full of people who care deeply about the club. The presenters were clearly nervous and the issues with the microphone made it worse. What I did see was a committee that looks like the Falkirk support (not a bunch of old guys) and a genuine group of people wanting to make FSS a success, they aren't there to be professional presenters and the whole room seemed to be rooting for them to do well. 

What was also clear there's been a massive rift on the committee with one person choosing to resign because he didn't agree with the direction. I guess because the rest of the committee are all there after the resignation it's safe to assume they didn't agree with him.  Shit happens in life and sensible folk should always avoid taking sides before understanding what the argument is about. I listened to both sides and the great comments from other fans, especially the very modest gentleman who spoke right after both opposing sides had their say. I don't know his name but he certainly spoke for me and the people around me.

I understand both points of view, the need for consultation etc, the need for the FSS to be the fans voice and so on. But judging by the reaction in the room and the folk I talked to after, as well as the chat on the way down the stairs, the idea of trade unions and balance sheet loans etc etc all had the feel of a solution in search of a problem.

As was said repeatedly last night the FSS have come from no where to be the majority shareholder, what an achievement.  

The explanation about the final lot of shares made perfect sense to me, the manager gets money for the budget and other fans rally around to give FSS the 25% plus one. 

Totally agree with this and with more FSS voting systems really happy

[Bairn in Exile]

1 hour ago, AJ1981 said:

 

What was also clear there's been a massive rift on the committee with one person choosing to resign because he didn't agree with the direction. I guess because the rest of the committee are all there after the resignation it's safe to assume they didn't agree with him.  

 

 

32 minutes ago, Van_damage said:

Just need to comment on this as if it was made out to be mainly about one person then that’s really poor. Everyone has the right to an opinion and if it’s something that most don’t agree with then debate the point and not the man. 

Bear in mind too that all of this, which started with the person resigning, brought attention to something important that may have went unnoticed. Whether it’s concluded in the manner they hoped or not then at least more are aware of the facts. 

This debate has led to the FSS getting the shares it requires quicker(thanks to the efforts of the patrons).

The contract between the club and the FSS being made public.

A bigger understanding of the FSS structure with members and a further sense of being involved to have their say.

If lessons are to be learned and things improved upon for the future then it’s thanks to that person. They actually deserve some credit rather than being denounced by the FSS and board alike. That’s grossly unfair. 

if the "one person" that you are referring to is @Kevin James Left Knee then I am extremely grateful to him for resigning from FSS and bringing the matter to my attention. He could have just taking the easy option and went with the flow but instead he took a stand. Without his resignation we might not have had the amount of debate that we have had on here and some clarity brought to the proceedings. Thank you sir!

[Reggie Perrin]

1 hour ago, Harry Kinnear said:

From what I heard last night, the only mistake I think the board and FSS board have made is not being a bit more up front with the members.

The board knew they were getting the money from the FSS and wanted extra money by way of selling the remaining shares to the Patrons group. As Keith Gourley said last night this allowed them to give the manager more money to get a RB in and they have worked with the FSS to get us the shares we needed to reach the 25%.

If they had communicated it better and explained the reasoning we might not be having this debate. I know it’s not everyone’s opinion but I see us as one anyway, the board are all fans, patrons and members of the FSS so we all need honesty and to be pulling in the same direction for the good of the club. If members want to stop their subscription that is their right.

Lets now draw a line under this and back the team going forward.

This.

The issue has been lack of communication nothing else.

FSS are getting the 25% +1 and the club have raised a modest amount of money which has allowed the loan signing of a right back with the possibility of another loan signing to come.

As with any group with over 700 members there will always be dissenting voices but those stopping their subscription over this matter are being rather precious in my view.

As for the meeting last night I came away with the impression that the BoD still have unrealistic expectations of the level of membership that can be achieved.

I would think that 1200 would be the maximum likely membership number, the idea floated of engaging the Ultras and young fans in general and offering youngsters a reduced monthly subscription of £5 would be a good start to achieving this number.

On a different subject the idea of attracting a group of four companies to fund the Academy was an excellent suggestion (didn’t catch the gents name but going from his comments he puts a fair bit of cash into the club).

[Bairn in Exile]

4 minutes ago, Reggie Perrin said:

 

I would think that 1200 would be the maximum likely membership number, the idea floated of engaging the Ultras and young fans in general and offering youngsters a reduced monthly subscription of £5 would be a good start to achieving this number.

 

How old would you say most of the Ultras are? School age? Late teens? Early 20s? When the camera panned onto them at TFS they looked like 20 somethings but the ones at the Rec looked much younger, school age.

The reason that I am asking is that guys in their late teens and early 20s who are working have a reasonable amount of disposable income after paying their digs. At least they did in my day. Do they really need a reduced monthly subscription to get them to join?

[Zbairn]

20 minutes ago, Bairn in Exile said:

How old would you say most of the Ultras are? School age? Late teens? Early 20s? When the camera panned onto them at TFS they looked like 20 somethings but the ones at the Rec looked much younger, school age.

The reason that I am asking is that guys in their late teens and early 20s who are working have a reasonable amount of disposable income after paying their digs. At least they did in my day. Do they really need a reduced monthly subscription to get them to join?

Think what we ended up proposing was a "Junior" subscription of £5 a month. 

Harder to target those of working age that look a lot younger  

[Reggie Perrin]

26 minutes ago, Bairn in Exile said:

How old would you say most of the Ultras are? School age? Late teens? Early 20s? When the camera panned onto them at TFS they looked like 20 somethings but the ones at the Rec looked much younger, school age.

The reason that I am asking is that guys in their late teens and early 20s who are working have a reasonable amount of disposable income after paying their digs. At least they did in my day. Do they really need a reduced monthly subscription to get them to join?

I would go for an under 21 £5 fee.