Independence - how would you vote?

[H_B]

Not sure why it would matter.

That's because you are thick.

[SlipperyP]

Well done for proving my point.

It's not right-wing libertarian to say that society and the state are completely different things and that the role of the state is not to reflect society but plug the gaps to vindicate the rights of individuals and groups of individuals whose liberty (positive or negative) would otherwise be infringed. Government programmes don't help "society as a whole". They settle disputes between competing interests within society. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you've rather missed the point of that post.

Well exactly. This isn't remotely controversial. It's about a sense of common civic identity. Hard as it might be for people who only feel Scottish to conceptualise, there are people who identify as British or British and Scottish, and who feel a sense of shared community, political, social, economic, cultural, linguistic and so forth, with people elsewhereon the British Isles other than their "home nation". British nationhood, like it or not, is still a thing. This speaks to some of the more idiotic Nat arguments like "you must be craven if you don't think your nation should be independent". For a lot of people, Britain is their nation. They're probably every bit as bemused as to why you don't feel a sense of shared identity and political community as you are at the notion they do.

But for people like me, they're all wrong. Not because national identity is a bad thing, but because it's at best a coincidental and partial normative force for how we should decide the boundaries and composition of our states. I don't feel like a foreigner because of my passport when I visit Libya, Serbia or Germany. I feel like a foreigner, an outsider, that I am not part of their "polis" because I haven't grown up under their institutions, because I don't share their language, because I haven't had a stake in the political decisions and the cultural life which has been such an integral part of their existence. That doesn't mean I feel a lesser person, or that I think one particular national identity is more morally superior or more important; simply that I am disengaged from the civic and political identity they have constructed from themselves.

For the record, I feel British and Scottish. I don't think that British identity needs to rely on the British state to exist and to prosper, though I do believe there is a risk that it would weaken without them. On an emotional level, that would be regretable, but it's not a big factor for me in this debate. If it were, I'd be voting No. Again, on an emotional level, I would marginally rather that we were able to find a new way of conceiving sovereignty within a British context, and in general I think that independence movements (as opposed to self-determination movements) in developed liberal democracies in many senses serve to re-enforce nation-statehood when as a concept it is less appropriate to a far more globalised world. But in the absence of the likelihood of the delivery of a better alternative, I vote Yes.

Read this time, which is very unusual,

please, this is all jargon, get to the meat then type it! The point is the point not the story behind the point....shit I've started to type too much, anyway did I tell you the time when we were all .......ah whatever

[Swampy]

A bit off topic but followed this link from the comments section of a Scotsman story about the Gilmerton by election tomorrow:

http://order-order.com/2013/06/19/snps-one-party-state-leaflet-trick/

The leaflet is certainly questionable but the anti Scottish bile in the comments section is staggering. For all the unionist claims about cybernats I have never read anything like this directed at the English.

Sent from my HTC One S using Pie & Bovril mobile app

There is a huge anti-Scottish racism problem in the UK. Another good reason to vote Yes.

[oht]

Not sure why it would matter.

It might be real, probably is in fact, but as I'm alluding to with the Piers Morgan comment - pictures of people purporting to be in the army have circulated before. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3716151.stm

And even if they are real, tens of thousands (hundreds?) are employed by the MoD. There are tens of thousands of people employed by my company and I'm sure there'll be some arseholes with extremist views around. Independence isn't going to change that. The poster might be trying to make some "not in my name" point which I can relate to but there's presumably a better way of getting the point across than saying "look, this lot employ at least four dickheads".

[DeeGas]

There is a huge anti-Scottish racism problem in the UK. Another good reason to vote Yes.

Luckily most people do not believe the ridiculous and trouble making SNP and Co.

Millions of English,Welsh and N Irish thoroughly respect and enjoy Scottish culture and love the people.

[Baxter Parp]

That's because you are thick.

Verbal abuse! The Unionists stock in trade.

[archie guevara]

Any inequality Scottish people may suffer is shared by millions of English.

stand your ground and things will get better.No need to break up the Union because of hard times and again,it is not only a Scottish problem,it is very much English and Welsh too.

Except that they won't.

It's inconceivable that having brought the private sector into large parts of the welfare system, either of the main parties will reverse that at any future point. So the NHS sell off in England and Wales will not be reversed and Virgin Healthcare and the like will continue to be paid to do stuff that the NHS does right now, but for private profit.

How can they possibly do that without affecting the quality of what they are doing or the livelihoods of the people employed to do it? The largest employer in the country, which brings huge benefits in all sorts of ways, including economic, will be broken up and be less good. The capitalists would have you believe that the market will ensure that it is better value for money than it is just now, thus saving tax. The government will control the performance targets and the specifications of what needs to be delivered and will make sure that no corners are cut.

Well that went pretty well for the supermarkets and the food industry earlier this year when beef turned out to be horse, driven by profit, in all sorts of directions.

People need to wake up to the fact that civic life is being dismantled in front of our eyes. Man the lifeboats, the Titanic is sinking and the best you can hope for is that it doesn't sink too far. It's sure as hell not going to miraculously refloat itself.

[archie guevara]

Oh look, abuse, lies that have been disproven, and yet he's one of those that comments on aliases? Forget PB and his aliases, at least he attempts to keep things relevant.

Its the Unionists who are really dragging this thread to oblivion, as proven day in day out by HB, Reynard, Tryfield, Ad Lib et al.

That's AdLib, who only yesterday said "I will vote Yes"

[archie guevara]

It might be real, probably is in fact, but as I'm alluding to with the Piers Morgan comment - pictures of people purporting to be in the army have circulated before. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3716151.stm

And even if they are real, tens of thousands (hundreds?) are employed by the MoD. There are tens of thousands of people employed by my company and I'm sure there'll be some arseholes with extremist views around. Independence isn't going to change that. The poster might be trying to make some "not in my name" point which I can relate to but there's presumably a better way of getting the point across than saying "look, this lot employ at least four dickheads".

Stevie, from the Invicta Loyal, in Helmand (or maybe the quarry where they film Dr Who)

Edited to add... I think one of the main points being made is not that there will be extreme views on both sides of the debate, but that if someone so much as farts in the direction of a No politician there is outrage, whilst there is omerta over some of the more extreme unionist views.

Take the Susan Calman fuss as an example. She made a couple of duff jokes, some nutters said nasty things to her on Twitter, she took a huff and suddenly, every pro-independence supporter was tarred with the "nasty" brush. Go on Twitter and search for Alex Salmond on any given day when he is on the telly and you will see the most hateful things, but nobody has said a word about it.

[Baxter Parp]

Stevie, from the Invicta Loyal, in Helmand (or maybe the quarry where they film Dr Who)

So proud and loyal his mates need to have their faces blanked.

[Reynard]

Except that they won't.

It's inconceivable that having brought the private sector into large parts of the welfare system, either of the main parties will reverse that at any future point. So the NHS sell off in England and Wales will not be reversed and Virgin Healthcare and the like will continue to be paid to do stuff that the NHS does right now, but for private profit.

How can they possibly do that without affecting the quality of what they are doing or the livelihoods of the people employed to do it? The largest employer in the country, which brings huge benefits in all sorts of ways, including economic, will be broken up and be less good. The capitalists would have you believe that the market will ensure that it is better value for money than it is just now, thus saving tax. The government will control the performance targets and the specifications of what needs to be delivered and will make sure that no corners are cut.

Well that went pretty well for the supermarkets and the food industry earlier this year when beef turned out to be horse, driven by profit, in all sorts of directions.

People need to wake up to the fact that civic life is being dismantled in front of our eyes. Man the lifeboats, the Titanic is sinking and the best you can hope for is that it doesn't sink too far. It's sure as hell not going to miraculously refloat itself.

Essentially, what you are saying is that the lefts vision of welfarism has died.

Pleasing.

Even more fantastic is that the loony left has aligned itself with the scottish nationalist movement in one last effort to find an enclave where it can wreak it's havoc. Thankfully, the people of Scotland don't want what they are trying to sell it and will vote no en masse.

There's always Sheridans mob or whatever other faction turns up in the rubbble of defeat.

BTW GPs have worked privately in the NHS since it's inception, any plans to reverse this?

[End London Rule]

I see that the Royal Mail think the government should stick privatisation firmly up their farter:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22973480

[End London Rule]

Why are Nordic countries in such a better position than Scotland when there are numerous similarities between us?

What is Reynard's view of these incredible countries in comparison to the abomination that is the United Kingdom?

[xbl]

Why are Nordic countries in such a better position than Scotland when there are numerous similarities between us?

What is Reynard's view of these incredible countries in comparison to the abomination that is the United Kingdom?

He wouldn't know. He shares that Unionist insularity. Probably doesn't trust them foreign types. A bit like hb and his utter lies about life outside glorious britain.

[archie guevara]

Essentially, what you are saying is that the lefts vision of welfarism has died.

Pleasing.

Even more fantastic is that the loony left has aligned itself with the scottish nationalist movement in one last effort to find an enclave where it can wreak it's havoc. Thankfully, the people of Scotland don't want what they are trying to sell it and will vote no en masse.

There's always Sheridans mob or whatever other faction turns up in the rubbble of defeat.

BTW GPs have worked privately in the NHS since it's inception, any plans to reverse this?

The NHS and the way it is run have only been painted as part of the loony left since 2010 when the shock troops of capitalism, blinded by dogma, entered 10 and 11 Downing Street.

Up until then, it had been seen and regarded by the UK nation as the keystone of social democracy. Now it's spoken of as too expensive and inefficient (the greatest lie of all), just so that Cameron and Osborne can sell it to shareholder led businesses that employ MPs and Lords as consultants.

Then we'll be told that it's good that they make a profit out of our taxes, because it helps our employee or private pensions. In the meantime, the fat cats cream off cash for their houses on Necker Island and their boltholes in Chelsea, and the cleaners get paid minimum wage while their top up benefits get reduced.

Edited for large chip on shoulder causing bad typing

[H_B]

. A bit like hb and his utter lies about life outside glorious britain.

Was the supermarket out of Wotsits again?

[End London Rule]

He wouldn't know. He shares that Unionist insularity. Probably doesn't trust them foreign types. A bit like hb and his utter lies about life outside glorious britain.

The fact that Scotland isn't currently as successful as the Nordics is proof in the pudding that Westminster has failed our country.

The dumb f**ks seem incapable of realising this though for some reason.

[xbl]

Was the supermarket out of Wotsits again?

I dont know? Can you get wotsits in Sweden? Remember when you used to assure us that nobody used Britain and England interchangeably? Drawing on all your years of experience of foreign travel? Been a while since you banged that particular drum, eh?

[xbl]

The fact that Scotland isn't currently as successful as the Nordics is proof in the pudding that Westminster has failed our country.

The dumb f**ks seem incapable of realising this though for some reason.

Oh they know. Hence the constant deflection and attacks!

[H_B]

I dont know? Can you get wotsits in Sweden? Remember when you used to assure us that nobody used Britain and England interchangeably? Drawing on all your years of experience of foreign travel? Been a while since you banged that particular drum, eh?

Is this bizarre nonsense a way of removing focus from your complete inability to answer the "Is the Scottish Parliament 'serious' devolution?" question?