Scottish Independence

[H_B]

I guess it does depend where you stand in terms of defining what constitutes left and right. I don't see Milliband as a particularly strong response to the direction New Labour and the Tories have taken us. The SNP have at least delivered some succeses in countering that tidal wave for people in Scotland - NHS, tuition fees etc.

Milliband coming up through New Labour, offering a piss poor opposition to things like NHS privitisation but wanting to increasing corporation tax by 1% (well maybe, if the conditions are right) is like someone nicking a tenner from your wallet, then giving you a quid back.

Word salad.

You have claimed that the SNP are more left wing than Ed Miliband's Labour Party.

We've established that economically they are very much more right wing. So, you are just completely wrong, if we are being honest.

Tuition fees isn't a left wing policy incidentally.

[strichener]

Certainly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/overview/html/scotland.stm

^^^Utter failure to comprehend his own words.

Erm, the number of votes cast in the 2011 election?

^^^The cavalry comes charging in on their asses to compound the fail.

How predictable

The claim made by H_B - "A lot more people voted against the SNP than for it." is shown by the election results? Where was this option on the ballot paper that I can't remember. Can someone tell me that I missed voting for the "NOT SNP" party?.

So can either of you provide any proof that a lot more people voted against the SNP than for it? Thought not.

I await the input of Ad Lib to confirm that you are talking pish, just to keep the debate honest.

[H_B]

The claim made by H_B - "A lot more people voted against the SNP than for it." is shown by the election results?

Oooooft.

Has Parp hacked your account. This is absolutely dreadful stuff.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

We've established that economically they are very much more right wing. So, you are just completely wrong, if we are being honest.

No we've not.

Tuition fees isn't a left wing policy incidentally.

Rofl.

[H_B]

No we've not.

Ah OK - good.

So, can you outline please the SNP's economic policies which are left-wing, compared to Ed Miliband's Labour?

[banterman86]

I guess it does depend where you stand in terms of defining what constitutes left and right. I don't see Milliband as a particularly strong response to the direction New Labour and the Tories have taken us. The SNP have at least delivered some succeses in countering that tidal wave for people in Scotland - NHS, tuition fees etc.

Milliband coming up through New Labour, offering a piss poor opposition to things like NHS privitisation but wanting to increasing corporation tax by 1% (well maybe, if the conditions are right) is like someone nicking a tenner from your wallet, then giving you a quid back.

Haven;t Labour said they would reverse the NHS Act or whatever it was that opened the whole thing up under Andrew Lansley?

Not that that's relevant in Scotland of course, but it's by the by.

Whether or not you think Miliband is good enough wasn;t really what we're talking though - it's whther or not his party are to the left of the SNP or not. As I said, I can identify four things - probably size when you toss in his price fixing with energy and rent - which suggest he's to the left of the SNP.

Not that being to the left of the SNP is inherently a good thing of course, itl;s just an observation. I can;t see any current evidence to the SNP being on Labour's left.

[H_B]

I can;t see any current evidence to the SNP being on Labour's left.

The evidence for this is "they are the good guys, so they must be".

[banterman86]

^^^Utter failure to comprehend his own words.

^^^The cavalry comes charging in on their asses to compound the fail.

How predictable

The claim made by H_B - "A lot more people voted against the SNP than for it." is shown by the election results? Where was this option on the ballot paper that I can't remember. Can someone tell me that I missed voting for the "NOT SNP" party?.

So can either of you provide any proof that a lot more people voted against the SNP than for it? Thought not.

Erm, are you serious?

By that rationale more people voted for the tories in 2010 than against them, because there wasn't a No Tory option on the ballot.

[pandarilla]

I think there's two things to add to this debate about Labour vs the SNP in terms of being left-wing and having popularity in Scotland.

Firstly, Ed Miliband's Labour Party appear to have shifted to the left - and people take time to get used to that. A lot of folk are judging the Labour Party on the New Labour record - which is fairly disappointing for many folk on the left. Its definitely more difficult for parties to be left-wing whilst in government.

Also, one of the reasons why I hate the Labour Party in Scotland is the way they have opposed the SNP over the last decade or so. Its been utterly petulant and at times quite obsessive. They despise the idea of independence in a way that many of their supporters don't. Most of their supporters see the Tories as their political enemy and yet Scottish Labour have went after the SNP with a blind hatred.

[pandarilla]

^^^Utter failure to comprehend his own words.

^^^The cavalry comes charging in on their asses to compound the fail.

How predictable

The claim made by H_B - "A lot more people voted against the SNP than for it." is shown by the election results? Where was this option on the ballot paper that I can't remember. Can someone tell me that I missed voting for the "NOT SNP" party?.

So can either of you provide any proof that a lot more people voted against the SNP than for it? Thought not.

I await the input of Ad Lib to confirm that you are talking pish, just to keep the debate honest.

That's Ad Lib levels of pedantry there chief. Well played.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Ah OK - good.

So, can you outline please the SNP's economic policies which are left-wing, compared to Ed Miliband's Labour?

If you're going on about "economic policies" because you think the SNP not commiting to have higher taxes than the UK shows that they're right-wing, well then you don't really have anything.

The SNP are left of Milliband, which I've addressed a few times.

[strichener]

Questions for H_B:

Is it OK to subsidise energy by not allowing the companies to charge the fair market rate and thus reduce the corporation tax take but not housing?

Does this have no bearing on the governments revenue with lost VAT and corporation tax

Is the market manipulation a right or left wing policy?

Does this energy price freeze not count for some strange reason that I cannot fathom (other than it not suiting your position)?

[strichener]

Erm, are you serious?

By that rationale more people voted for the tories in 2010 than against them, because there wasn't a No Tory option on the ballot.

I am serious, H_B made a claim that he cannot provide evidence for. Are you suggesting that I had 6 votes in the election, 1 for the party that I voted for and 1 against each of the other parties that stood? Funnily enough if that were the case then I would of only voted "against" four of them.

And just for the record, I never made any claims on voters intentions that was H_B so I suggest you address this to him But just to set your mind at rest, the voters in 2010 had the option to Vote for the conservatives, so your rationale is wrong.

Oooooft.

Has Parp hacked your account. This is absolutely dreadful stuff.

So no evidence then?

[strichener]

That's Ad Lib levels of pedantry there chief. Well played.

Or H_B, which was kinda the point.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Haven;t Labour said they would reverse the NHS Act or whatever it was that opened the whole thing up under Andrew Lansley?

Not that that's relevant in Scotland of course, but it's by the by.

Whether or not you think Miliband is good enough wasn;t really what we're talking though - it's whther or not his party are to the left of the SNP or not. As I said, I can identify four things - probably size when you toss in his price fixing with energy and rent - which suggest he's to the left of the SNP.

Not that being to the left of the SNP is inherently a good thing of course, itl;s just an observation. I can;t see any current evidence to the SNP being on Labour's left.

It's not always possible to compare exact policies to establish left/right when they start from completely different positions.

For example, didn't Milliband say he wanted to bring tuition fees down to £6k? He could pencil that down under lowering tuition fees if he wanted but the hypothetical England of Ed Milliband would still be to the right of the SNP.

I don't see anything on the table from Labour to suggest that they would take the country left of Scotland. The only argument for that is taxation policies, which Labour might bring in and which an SNP-lead iScotland wouldn't go higher than. Pretty weak stuff.

[Baxter Parp]

sorry, again, you are struggling here.

You made the claim that Labourr's Corporation Tax policy was to the right of the SNPs? Yes or No?

(hint - the answer is yes).

Now, what is that policy? Which is to the right of the SNP's inequality increasing proposals?

Actually, I said their record was to the right of the snp's. How can someone who holds himself in such regard be so consistently stupid, I wonder?

[Baxter Parp]

So no evidence then?

Yes, so much for law school, eh?

[renton]

Haven;t Labour said they would reverse the NHS Act or whatever it was that opened the whole thing up under Andrew Lansley?

Not that that's relevant in Scotland of course, but it's by the by.

Whether or not you think Miliband is good enough wasn;t really what we're talking though - it's whther or not his party are to the left of the SNP or not. As I said, I can identify four things - probably size when you toss in his price fixing with energy and rent - which suggest he's to the left of the SNP.

Not that being to the left of the SNP is inherently a good thing of course, itl;s just an observation. I can;t see any current evidence to the SNP being on Labour's left.

Well, they said they would reverse bits of it, not wanting to commit themselves to another reorganisation as such, so I imagine the most publically despised bits will go and the rest stay - whatever than means in terms of allowing privatised healthcare, which Labour are all too keen on anyway.

I don't like the Labour party, I find them perpetually dissapointing, the North British branch in particular - but there is no doubt that Milliband is trying to feel his way leftwards. Reform of the energy market is essential, although I'm not sure how a freeze will bring lasting benefits, it's smacks of being an easy thing to do, rather than the right thing to do. I remain sceptical about the banking reforms, which will be window dressing - unless Labour want to embark on long overdue, deep reaching reforms of the fundamentals of the UK economy - and they don't.

Certainly, you could 'chalk up a win' for Labour vs the SNP in terms of Corporation tax, but so what? Both parties these days makes noises about social democratic principles even if neither ever gets that close to the reality. I do think the SNP show a more socially liberal, and better attitude towards education, and a more classically social democratic stewarship of the NHS, both parties are creepily authoritarian and centralising when it comes ot services such as the law and order. The SNP have a far more coherent energy strategy for the 21st Century as well.

Policies such as council tax and corporation tax should be seen through the lens of the local politics: Council tax freezes are popular with the electorate and have the effect of denying power to Labour led councils where you have the local chain of command that has local power power invested in the MP - it's a way of circumventing Holyrood to an extent (it's why devolved council powers featured prominently in Labour devo policies - they don't think they can win back Holyrood and want to dilute 'toytown' as much as possible). So to me it looks like a long line of SNP policies designed to re-cretae Holyrood as a centre of gravity for Scottish politics, I'd hope that after independence that lack of confidence (which is what it is) would vanish, but then they have shown a tendency to cnetralise which I dissaprove of. Likewise, cutting corporation tax immediately after Indy is not the worst idea in terms of economic security, albeit not a policy I approve of in a broad sense - but it's something you might have to live with in order to smooth over 'jitters' in the business community.

Overall, I don't think there is much in it. the terrain of politics at both parliaments creates in each party certain idosynchracies that do not seem to hold with their members more dearly held wishes. People are willing to give the SNP more of a chance becuase a few half policy announcements from Labour are not going to wipe folks memories of Nu Labour in a hurry. I do wonder to the extent that the need to be popular in Scotland keeps the SNP 'honest' if you like, in terms of left wing policies. It's all positioning. To an extent I do see why folk would be less willing to criticise the SNP at this juncture - 5 months out and you don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat, that's only natural I'd imagine.

[doulikefish]

Much like the bittters campaign its pretty obvious that the britnats on here forgetting that indy isnt about the snp

[Tubbs]

Much like the bittters campaign its pretty obvious that the britnats on here forgetting that indy isnt about the snp

It absolutely is for 18 crucial months.