Scottish Independence

[renton]

Good points - it;s not like your avergae fife snp councillor has a hotline to Alex Salmond for instance.

My concern is that a lot of independents don;t publish a lot of information and may lack a degree of accountability. The Bill Walker case shows that parties do screen candidates ( I appreciate that looks like a dig at the SNP but you know what i mean, there are processes there for all parties)

Also, remember organsationally in terms of the council administration is a factor. Some general broad churches are better than a mass of individuals.

Quite so, I think it's a sea change in politics you'd need to make it work and as I said an idea like this would have to go hand in hand with smaller council areas. If you had council elections for say, every 10 or 15,000 folk, it's much easier to bring accountability to that for independents, much easier to reach out into communities and you are right, maybe you'd need some kind of civil service vetting procedure, to stand for public office. I'm not saying I have a fully worked out plan for changing all politics* but I do have reservations about how party affiliation makes local politics works.

*On my more cynical/whacked out days I wonder if the solution is to make public office like jury duty. On the basis that the last folk you want in power are those who actively seek it, I wonder if you just don't get a summons through the door to do a tour of duty as a legisator and be done with it. You don't have to tell me how crazy that sounds, I know.

[banterman86]

Quite so, I think it's a sea change in politics you'd need to make it work and as I said an idea like this would have to go hand in hand with smaller council areas. If you had council elections for say, every 10 or 15,000 folk, it's much easier to bring accountability to that for independents, much easier to reach out into communities and you are right, maybe you'd need some kind of civil service vetting procedure, to stand for public office. I'm not saying I have a fully worked out plan for changing all politics* but I do have reservations about how party affiliation makes local politics works.

why is it easier for independents to be more accountable with smaller councils?

I like the idea of smaller councils and co-operative working, although i think they need to refelect actual communities than general populations - some of the Westminster constituencies for example, seem a bit haphazard just to make a population cap.

[strichener]

Quite so, I think it's a sea change in politics you'd need to make it work and as I said an idea like this would have to go hand in hand with smaller council areas. If you had council elections for say, every 10 or 15,000 folk, it's much easier to bring accountability to that for independents, much easier to reach out into communities and you are right, maybe you'd need some kind of civil service vetting procedure, to stand for public office. I'm not saying I have a fully worked out plan for changing all politics* but I do have reservations about how party affiliation makes local politics works.

*On my more cynical/whacked out days I wonder if the solution is to make public office like jury duty. On the basis that the last folk you want in power are those who actively seek it, I wonder if you just don't get a summons through the door to do a tour of duty as a legisator and be done with it. You don't have to tell me how crazy that sounds, I know.

Disagree, I don't think this is crazy at all. I would also get rid of parties to ensure that people voted in the best interests of their constituents every time rather than the current system.

[Mr Bairn]

Again, this is just my opinion, but the people who are most affected by IDS & Westminster's horrendous policies would not be overly interested in bus regulation if you put it to them. They would far rather not be penalised for having the gall to have 2 kids in a 2 bedroom flat when there's nowhere else to go, or they would rather not be humiliated by ATOS then have their benefits stopped, because the ATOS-appointed Doctor says they can lift a finger and press a button, therefore they can work. Or they would rather not have to rely on cold-food parcels from the local foodbank to put a meal on the table.

Do you have specific, council by council evidence to suggest that council tax freezes eat into school, housing and social care budgets?

Is it not more the case that the Conservative policies are damaging, too deep and targetted at entirely the wrong people? Policies that your darlings in Labour are eager to replicate?

I'd have thought you might have learned to think before you mention ATOS. Not going to end well for you.

[deky]

Disagree, I don't think this is crazy at all. I would also get rid of parties to ensure that people voted in the best interests of their constituents every time rather than the current system.

Totally agree.

Party affiliation is killing democracy imo.

[banterman86]

Disagree, I don't think this is crazy at all. I would also get rid of parties to ensure that people voted in the best interests of their constituents every time rather than the current system.

But in terms of organiosation how does this work? For example - Alex Salmond is FM, are his constituents in Aberdeen or all across Scotland? What if he had to make a decision not great for aberdenn but good for Scotland as a whole? Amd how does being an independent make that decision any easier?

[renton]

why is it easier for independents to be more accountable with smaller councils?

I like the idea of smaller councils and co-operative working, although i think they need to refelect actual communities than general populations - some of the Westminster constituencies for example, seem a bit haphazard just to make a population cap.

It's easier for anybody to be closer to their constituents with smaller councils (or indeed smaller parliament seats), it's just that while party affiliated people could function in both, only in smaller councils could independents effectively campaign (think face to face time, less mail to send out etc). Agree with you regarding reflecting an actual constituency.

[Confidemus]

I'd have thought you might have learned to think before you mention ATOS. Not going to end well for you.

I'd have thought you might have learned to think before you mention anything. Not going to end well for you.

[doulikefish]

Are the britnats actually arguing that scotland shouldnt get independence because the snp arent left of labour?

[AberdeenBud]

Are the britnats actually arguing that scotland shouldnt get independence because the snp arent left of labour?

Yes, I think they are.

[strichener]

But in terms of organiosation how does this work? For example - Alex Salmond is FM, are his constituents in Aberdeen or all across Scotland? What if he had to make a decision not great for aberdenn but good for Scotland as a whole? Amd how does being an independent make that decision any easier?

Why would they necessarily be different? Even if they were, by definition if every representative voted for what was best for their constituents then by definition the majority interest is served on every issue. The replacement Forth crossing and Edinburgh trams were an example of where Salmond voted for the party line rather than his role of representing his constituency.

Just on a point of fact, Mr Salmond does not represent Aberdeen.

[banterman86]

The replacement Forth crossing and Edinburgh trams were an example of where Salmond voted for the party line rather than his role of representing his constituency.

Exactly, independents don't have a party line

[banterman86]

Are the britnats actually arguing that scotland shouldnt get independence because the snp arent left of labour?

No

[strichener]

Exactly, independents don't have a party line

Erm, not exactly sure how to take this. Are you agreeing with me that he should be representing his constituents or saying that he should put vanity projects first?

I am in favour of independents exactly because they don't have a party line. I see this as a positive. I am not sure where you stand.

[banterman86]

Erm, not exactly sure how to take this. Are you agreeing with me that he should be representing his constituents or saying that he should put vanity projects first?

I am in favour of independents exactly because they don't have a party line. I see this as a positive. I am not sure where you stand.

My point is organisationally it's challenging for a group of independents to deliver an effective administration if there's an every man for himself attitude.

If the SNP decide the new Forth crossing is good for Scotland as a whole, even if it;s not necessarily good for capital investment in Aberdeenshire or the central belt, it becomes the party line, it's whipped on and that's that.

People standing up for their area is good. But Government's being able to govern effectively is also good.

[strichener]

My point is organisationally it's challenging for a group of independents to deliver an effective administration if there's an every man for himself attitude.

If the SNP decide the new Forth crossing is good for Scotland as a whole, even if it;s not necessarily good for capital investment in Aberdeenshire or the central belt, it becomes the party line, it's whipped on and that's that.

People standing up for their area is good. But Government's being able to govern effectively is also good.

And that is where I have a problem. Very few things are good for Scotland as a whole whilst most are good for the majority of Scots. There is a difference.

[banterman86]

And that is where I have a problem. Very few things are good for Scotland as a whole whilst most are good for the majority of Scots. There is a difference.

I'm pretty sure the latter is taken into account more foten than not.

[Mr Bairn]

I'd have thought you might have learned to think before you mention anything. Not going to end well for you.

Could you provide some evidence that people have their benefits stopped "because the ATOS-appointed Doctor says they can lift a finger and press a button, therefore they can work"

[Blaven]

Could you provide some evidence that people have their benefits stopped "because the ATOS-appointed Doctor says they can lift a finger and press a button, therefore they can work"

Please Mr Bairn, no again.

[vikingTON]

I find that quote a concerning attitude tbh, I'm all for power being passed down to councils, regardless of their poltical make up. I find it a strange postion for a Indendendence supporter to be in to be in favour of more localised democracy and power through indy, but not through greater powers for local government.

It's not even remotely strange. In case you haven't been paying attention, the SNP's pretty well-worn stance is that Scotland is, erm, a nation, not a locality, and that the government of this nation would be better within its well-established boundaries than being distantly represented by Westminster in a unitary state. The SNP is not a localist/federalist nutjob party like Ad Lib's - very, very few people actually support this localist policy when it comes down to election decision making.

Instead it is periodically resurrected as a rather limp stick with which to attempt to beat the SNP for suppressing local autonomy. I hope they do. Local authorities like Inverclyde (ruinously bankrupt, despite massive tax hikes and flogging what was left of the area's assets for yet more property and supermarkets) or Glasgow (a nefarious Labour cabal whose council leaders have time and again been dragged down in scandal) are not the sort of competent, credible vehicles for utilising public revenue. Nor indeed are the joke councillors from all parties who preside over the shambles, some of whom manage to progress their troughing careers to a higher and even more embarrassing level. Greater centralisation should be a goal of an independent Scottish state.

Firstly, child poverty could be targeted at holyrood right now - of the SNP had implemented their smaller class sizes polciy, for exampel, that could have a huge effect. Dittio if we built more housing. These would be long term, generational solutions of course.

Child poverty isn't notably affected by having smaller class sizes or better quality housing. Certainly not to a huge effect - by the time poorer children reach school age, they are already far behind their prosperous peers. More meaningless back of a fag packet Labour 'solutions' then.

The Council tax freeze, whilst serving middle earners and top earners more than those at the bottom, has been bad for social justice because it has eaten into the budgets of councils who provide vital public services, like schools, housing and social care. many of these services are likely to be relied upon by those at the bottom than those at the top.

A council tax freeze - as opposed to a decade of ruinous, above-inflation increases by glorified tuck shops taking the piss - benefits everyone. Councils in Scotland are an absolutely unaccountable disgrace, wasting taxpayers money on dross like flower-beds - it is absolutely right for the central government to squeeze their budgets in the best interests of the taxpayer. They make do only after the massive tax hikes they coined in under a Lib-Lab free-for-all anyway.

'Social justice' is not in fact a linear progression from 'good' to 'bad' you set it out to be. Councils spunking more money away from every council tax band is bad for social justice, bad for administrative efficiency, and a complete waste of resources. In comparison to this, Edinburgh freezing council taxes is better - or at least, far less 'bad' - in terms of 'social justice' than the clusterfuck perpetuated by your party in government. And no credible party or group has provided a working alternative - though I suspect a form of Local Income Tax will rear its head after September, regardless of the vote.