Scottish Independence

[renton]

But that second point is a conclusion you have come to because of your dislikeand cynicism towards the Labour party, rather than the actual policy itself.

What major areas are "bypassing" Holyrood to councils under Labour proposals? I saw the work program and soemthing else...whcih I can;t remeber.

Yes it is, hence why I wrote 'in my opinion'.

[Confidemus]

It appears to me no one has been able to name a major economic policy were the SNP are to the left of Miliband.

I, for one, don't particularly care overly much. Nor, I would proffer, do the majority of this forum.

Your posts are starting to be as lengthy as Ad-Libs and as snidey as HB's.

I'll await more responses from you, laden with "SNP" and "major economic policies". Either that or a chummy invitation to discuss women and bus regulation.

[banterman86]

Except that Labour were not bequething a status quo, they were on a journey towards greater privatisation in the NHS, which was halted and reversed by the SNP. Scottish Labour were certainly slower in accepting competitive, private health providers in the NHS, but neither were they immune. There is no reason to think they would not have continued on the same path as UK Labour, albeit at a slower pace. The SNP have put the scottish NHS on a different vector altogether.

We've been here before, I think your refering to PFI building hospitals rather than actual delivery of services, which the book "Strange death of scottish labour" outlines pretty well

Yes it is, hence why I wrote 'in my opinion'.

So would you be in favour iof the stuff Labour were proposing if it wasn't Labour who were proposing it?

Oh, and Holyrood is a credible centre of Government in Scotland. There is no doubt about that at all. The SNP aren;t trying to run it into one, it is.

[banterman86]

I, for one, don't particularly care overly much. Nor, I would proffer, do the majority of this forum.

Your posts are starting to be as lengthy as Ad-Libs and as snidey as HB's.

I'll await more responses from you, laden with "SNP" and "major economic policies". Either that or a chummy invitation to discuss women and bus regulation.

Why did you ignore points i directly raise to you in the very post you quoted?

And whilst I'm at it, you might have missed this post earlier

That's not quite what happened though, see the exchanges below. As you'll note I ask you repeatedly to point out any issues you feel I failed to address,which you ignored.

I am of course, as aways, happy to address any points you feel I have missed in the hope of a decent bit of debate.

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Confidemus, on 08 May 2014 - 13:19, said:

Yes, lets.

What's your take on it?

But we can go back to the previous stuff right? You'll identify what economic polcies the SNP ahve that puts them to the left of Labour currently?

As for the "woman problem" - I'm no John Curtice (obviously!) and have no idea why genders break down they way they do. I'm not sure how useful it is to try and win over an entire gender on specific policy issues - strikes me as a bit clumsy.

The child care pledge in the white paper for example, was sold as a "woman's issue" and seen as a pitch to female voters. Apart from the fact that it;s the 21st century and child care is an issue for dad's as well as mums, why does it have to be a wmen's issue? why can't the economy which has dominated the debate thus far, be a women;s issue?

These are rhetorical questions obviously, but Yes i think have been a bit poor in how they've appraoched it. Not sure if BT have done anything gender specific, probably don;t want to rock the boat.

　

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Confidemus, on 08 May 2014 - 13:19, said:

Putting your faux offence and poor comeback to one side, I'll answer your questions (which I didn't dodge incidentally, I just couldn't be arsed addressing them as I had previously told you) if you address the points I had previously asked you to.

I shan't hold my breath.

That's no problem, as I asked previosuly point out what you felt i hadn;t addressed and I will.

We could also talk about why the Yes campaign seems to be stalling with women, and what can be done to change that if you like?

　

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Confidemus, on 08 May 2014 - 13:19, said:

Just to be clear, your reasoning for Labour's slight shift to the left, is the one given above?

Tell me, what are Labour's plans regarding austerity?

I gave you practical examples.

And I dealt with your austerity point earlier in the thread.

Any chance of you answering my question? What economic policies have I missed from the SNP that puts them to the left of Labour?

　

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Confidemus, on 08 May 2014 - 13:19, said:

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Oh my fucking aching sides! Labour have lurched way over to the right since the least effective Miliband took over.

See, I don't think they have - the 50p tax and banking reform are the two obvious left polcies which the previous Labour government wasn;t keen on (I know the las labour government introduced 50p but as most tories point out it was in the dying days of their government)

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Confidemus, on 08 May 2014 - 13:19, said:

Far from it. Either that or you haven't read it.

And for you and Ad Lib to say Labour are left of SNP. Did you both ignore the graphic provided?

　

Okay, i'll adress whatever you think has been missed. Just point it out.

I did see the graph, i found it quite interesting. I may tale the test myself! I note Ad Lib has criticsed it in his own manner and i see the data provided isn;t too up to date - 2008 seems to be the latest figures,

As I;ve said, there have certainly been times in recent history were the SNP were to the left on labour (penny for Scotland etc) based on what I'm seeing form both parties now, I'm not convinced that is the case.

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[renton]

We've been here before, I think your refering to PFI building hospitals rather than actual delivery of services, which the book "Strange death of scottish labour" outlines pretty well

So would you be in favour iof the stuff Labour were proposing if it wasn't Labour who were proposing it?

Oh, and Holyrood is a credible centre of Government in Scotland. There is no doubt about that at all. The SNP aren;t trying to run it into one, it is.

I'd be in favour if I thought the motives weren't so cynical, it's not a gift of powers to local councils they are after, it's creating a clear chain of authority through councils to Labour MPs who desperately want some of thier old 'tartan mafia' influence back.

In an independent Scotland I would definitely want as much devolved power to local councils as possible, with smaller councils as well. i quite like the model they use in Iceland where each council is too small on it's own to basically fund everythign by itself, so each is forced into co-operative models with it's neighbours to fund services and so you get less centralised control, and more compromise on where services are located and how money is spent. At the minute, monolithic agencies like Fife council are responsible for the provision of services for 384,000 folk, with all the associated sucking power of the centre where stuff just always ends up located near Glenrothes. I'd also like to get rid of political parties at council level, essentially a technocratic, municipal managerial role, I don't see why councils actually need to be ideological.

[banterman86]

I'd be in favour if I thought the motives weren't so cynical, it's not a gift of powers to local councils they are after, it's creating a clear chain of authority through councils to Labour MPs who desperately want some of thier old 'tartan mafia' influence back.

In an independent Scotland I would definitely want as much devolved power to local councils as possible, with smaller councils as well. i quite like the model they use in Iceland where each council is too small on it's own to basically fund everythign by itself, so each is forced into co-operative models with it's neighbours to fund services and so you get less centralised control, and more compromise on where services are located and how money is spent. At the minute, monolithic agencies like Fife council are responsible for the provision of services for 384,000 folk, with all the associated sucking power of the centre where stuff just always ends up located near Glenrothes. I'd also like to get rid of political parties at council level, essentially a technocratic, municipal managerial role, I don't see why councils actually need to be ideological.

I don;t see thet tartan mafoe point, simply because the proposals aren't that radical.

Your last line interests me though - policy development can;t happen in an ideological vacuum surely?

[Mr Bairn]

Clown collective in ruins <_<

[Confidemus]

Why did you ignore points i directly raise to you in the very post you quoted?

And whilst I'm at it, you might have missed this post earlier

Why? Your friend HB does it all the time, I'm surprised you hadn't noticed.

Nope, I didn't miss it.

As stated, AGAIN, the odd economic policy is neither hither nor thither, in MY opinion. OVERALL, the SNP are markedly to the left of Labour.

[renton]

I don;t see thet tartan mafoe point, simply because the proposals aren't that radical.

Your last line interests me though - policy development can;t happen in an ideological vacuum surely?

Like what? Does free market neoliberalism really dictate when the bins get taken out? Is it Marxist statism that decides where the public pool should go?

People will be ideological even if they don't have party affiliation, I don't see any reason why party affiliation and it's baggage should be allowed to interfere with council business, whether it's deadlocking councils over wider party policy, or enforcing certina budget cuts to make the other side look bad, or hell, even deciding which flag to fly based on what side the party is on in the referendum. Also, it'd be nice to break the buggins turn tendency for folk using a concil position to launch into a career in politics.

[Baxter Parp]

Like what? Does free market neoliberalism really dictate when the bins get taken out?

Kind of, yes. Free market neoliberalism will determine whether your bins are taken out by a private company on a contract or an in-house team run by the council.

[banterman86]

Nope, I didn't miss it.

As stated, AGAIN, the odd economic policy is neither hither nor thither, in MY opinion. OVERALL, the SNP are markedly to the left of Labour.

But, as said post notes, I have asked you on several times for you to name the points you feel i did not address. I'd really rather have interesting discussions that swap abuse. Granted what we define as interetsing might not be the same!

[banterman86]

Like what? Does free market neoliberalism really dictate when the bins get taken out? Is it Marxist statism that decides where the public pool should go?

Kind of, yes. Free market neoliberalism will determine whether your bins are taken out by a private company on a contract or an in-house team run by the council.

Agree with Parp, there will be plenty of examples like that.

[Confidemus]

Granted what we define as interetsing might not be the same!

That's becoming apparent.

Here's what's important to me:

Social justice - and you can put austerity cuts, bedroom tax, foodbanks etc under this big old umbrella if you want.

Decisions that affect Scotland being taken in Scotland by Scottish people.

Trident - No need. I want a small defence force that doesn't stick it's oar in where it's not wanted.

Just generally the chance to shape our own future and a bit of compassion for the poor and vulnerable in Scotland who've been kicked from pillar to post by Westminster.

Thst's ESSENTIALLY, in a small nutshell what rings my bell.

Clearly, that's different to what interests you..

[banterman86]

Social justice - and you can put austerity cuts, bedroom tax, foodbanks etc under this big old umbrella if you want.

Social justice is a good one - and a very broad umbrella.

For example, bus regulation would allow for less proftable routes to remain viable, serving communties which may be more remote and people who cannot afford a car.

The Council tax freeze, whilst serving middle earners and top earners more than those at the bottom, has been bad for social justice because it has eaten into the budgets of councils who provide vital public services, like schools, housing and social care. many of these services are likely to be relied upon by those at the bottom than those at the top.

[Confidemus]

Social justice is a good one - and a very broad umbrella.

For example, bus regulation would allow for less proftable routes to remain viable, serving communties which may be more remote and people who cannot afford a car.

The Council tax freeze, whilst serving middle earners and top earners more than those at the bottom, has been bad for social justice because it has eaten into the budgets of councils who provide vital public services, like schools, housing and social care. many of these services are likely to be relied upon by those at the bottom than those at the top.

Again, this is just my opinion, but the people who are most affected by IDS & Westminster's horrendous policies would not be overly interested in bus regulation if you put it to them. They would far rather not be penalised for having the gall to have 2 kids in a 2 bedroom flat when there's nowhere else to go, or they would rather not be humiliated by ATOS then have their benefits stopped, because the ATOS-appointed Doctor says they can lift a finger and press a button, therefore they can work. Or they would rather not have to rely on cold-food parcels from the local foodbank to put a meal on the table.

Do you have specific, council by council evidence to suggest that council tax freezes eat into school, housing and social care budgets?

Is it not more the case that the Conservative policies are damaging, too deep and targetted at entirely the wrong people? Policies that your darlings in Labour are eager to replicate?

[renton]

Kind of, yes. Free market neoliberalism will determine whether your bins are taken out by a private company on a contract or an in-house team run by the council.

But that could be decided by councillors without the absolute requirement of party affiliation, and would actually free up folk to make the decision on the relevent points rather than party mantra. You could have died in the wool neoliberalists who when presented with the data, decide to run it in house becuase it makes more sense, rather than a bunch of tories who would contract it out just becuase that's what the blue pin on their lapel requires of them.

[banterman86]

Do you have specific, council by council evidence to suggest that council tax freezes eat into school, housing and social care budgets?

Is it not more the case that the Conservative policies are damaging, too deep and targetted at entirely the wrong people? Policies that your darlings in Labour are eager to replicate?

What polcies are these?

On the council tax freeze,i previously posted this, I'm not sure a council by council breakdown would eb availiable

http://archive.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/finance/inquiries/budget/david_bell_1112budget.pdf

You could have died in the wool neoliberalists who when presented with the data, decide to run it in house becuase it makes more sense, rather than a bunch of tories who would contract it out just becuase that's what the blue pin on their lapel requires of them.

Mmmm, no so sure. I think a died in the wool neoliberal would be against in house anyway

[renton]

What polcies are these?

On the council tax freeze,i previously posted this, I'm not sure a council by council breakdown would eb availiable

http://archive.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/finance/inquiries/budget/david_bell_1112budget.pdf

Mmmm, no so sure. I think a died in the wool neoliberal would be against in house anyway

I do wonder to what extent party affiliation projects certian beliefs onto people. I think most right wingers aren't that 'neoliberal' or outside of political junkies like us, really dig into what the term means but will be seen clapping like seals no matter what Osborne or Cameron say and will be defending it to their dying breath. I understand the requirement for party affiliation at higher, more abstract levels, but see absolutely no imperative for them in a technical sense* at the local level where freeing them from the dogma that goes with party affiliation might actually lead to more constructive decision making.

*The need for party affiliation at local level is principally an organsing one, to get the money to effectively campaign, but then, even that is not so important now, where social media and crowd surfing could take up the brunt of fund raising.

[Baxter Parp]

But that could be decided by councillors without the absolute requirement of party affiliation, and would actually free up folk to make the decision on the relevent points rather than party mantra. You could have died in the wool neoliberalists who when presented with the data, decide to run it in house becuase it makes more sense,

That's not the way it works, confronted by the facts that PFI, PPI and so on don't work (and they never have), the dyed in the wool neoliberals ignore them and go ahead with whatever the hell suits their ideology.

[banterman86]

I do wonder to what extent party affiliation projects certian beliefs onto people. I think most right wingers aren't that 'neoliberal' or outside of political junkies like us, really dig into what the term means but will be seen clapping like seals no matter what Osborne or Cameron say and will be defending it to their dying breath. I understand the requirement for party affiliation at higher, more abstract levels, but see absolutely no imperative for them in a technical sense* at the local level where freeing them from the dogma that goes with party affiliation might actually lead to more constructive decision making.

*The need for party affiliation at local level is principally an organsing one, to get the money to effectively campaign, but then, even that is not so important now, where social media and crowd surfing could take up the brunt of fund raising.

Good points - it;s not like your avergae fife snp councillor has a hotline to Alex Salmond for instance.

My concern is that a lot of independents don;t publish a lot of information and may lack a degree of accountability. The Bill Walker case shows that parties do screen candidates ( I appreciate that looks like a dig at the SNP but you know what i mean, there are processes there for all parties)

Also, remember organsationally in terms of the council administration is a factor. Some general broad churches are better than a mass of individuals.