Scottish Independence

[Tubbs]

Lying politicians are a world wide phenomenon; we need them but you have got to be very wary of them all.

[sons superhero]

1. When did people say that about the SNP?

2. No it doesn't. They won't get more than 1 MP.

Basically, don't be silly and stop spreading this negative Tartan Fear all over the place.

I thought opinion was ok!

[Confidemus]

Funny how HB's went all quiet now.

SNP (even though Independence is clearly far bigger than one party, a simple fact HB can't seem to grasp) are CLEARLY to the left of Milliband's Labour.

I'm not talking cherry picked economic policies, I'm talking OVERALL.

Trident

Austerity cuts

Just two things which Labour could not give one flying shite about, that are favoured as things that need to be addressed by "lefties".

[Colkitto]

The panic continues... Oh, and nice of Mr Cameron to "allow" us to have a referendum vote

"Some senior Tories have been saying in private that he would have to resign on the grounds that he would be the prime minister who broke up the UK 307 years after the Acts of Unions created Great Britain. Cameron's critics believe the referendum was a reckless gamble."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/08/david-cameron-defends-decision-scottish-independence-referendum?CMP=twt_gu

[vikingTON]

So by my count we have Miliband peldging to

Bring back 50p

Increase Corporation tax

reform the banking secotr by splitting up high street and investment banks (this may not be exactly right)

I don't think he's pledged a council tax freeze

The SNP as far as i can tell are no comment on 50p and the banks, will cut corpration tax and are delivering a CT freeze

'Pledging'... erm, yes, that certainly convinces me that a generation of Labour's right-centre has been put to bed, by the mid-term ramblings of an electoral lightweight. Much like Wendy Alexander's (?) 'pledge' to take the SNP on in a referendum, then.

Pledges and actions are two very different things, and Labour's track record on promoting the interests of the rich and increasing inequality despite a decade of unprecedented, favourable economic conditions are extremely well-documented.

[Apache Don]

I have searched for a reason to criticise the SNP and I have only found one. That is the decision to allow the windfarm off the coast at Menie estate in Aberdeenshire to go ahead, against Donald Trumps wishes, when I believe it could have been moved further North. On a positive note I had a problem and contacted my local SNP MSP and he dealt with it very quickly and efficiently. In fact I was surprised by his response.

My loathing of politicians seem only to extend to those parties that have a huge following in England. Once the vote on Independence has been settled, and in the event of a Yes vote, I will watch very carefully what happens next.

If the elected party in an Independent Scotland starts to lie and thieve the way that mainstream Westminster parties do, then I will consider creating my own political party called "All politicians are liars!" and if I win a seat then I will lobby to bring back the death penalty for treason! Seriously though, there should be stronger laws to prevent them from doing this. In an Independent Scotland the wave of new ideas would be able to create all sorts of new things, even my "All politicians are liars!" party.

Vote Yes and help to change this country into something YOU want it to be.

Has it not been muted that some form of recall law may be implemented, to make elected MPs more accountable to their constituents?

[Apache Don]

Funny how HB's went all quiet now.

SNP (even though Independence is clearly far bigger than one party, a simple fact HB can't seem to grasp) are CLEARLY to the left of Milliband's Labour.

I'm not talking cherry picked economic policies, I'm talking OVERALL.

Trident

Austerity cuts

Just two things which Labour could not give one flying shite about, that are favoured as things that need to be addressed by "lefties".

I'll tell you what I couldn't give a flying shit about, how far to the left or right of Labour SNP are.

Simple question for simple people (of which I admit to being) - ''Should Scotland be an Independent Country?'' Yes or No?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

it's understandable with this kind of referendum coming up, though.

I agree that the SNP's economic policy is very much to the right of what I'd want to see implemeted.

But we are not voting for that policy at this referendum.

SNP policy is central to the whole debate because there is no credible alternative to an SNP government.

Who else would lead iScotland?

Certainly not Labour, the Fib Dems or the Tories.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

See, this is fundamental to the debate. And it probably incorporates a good chunk of No voters, like DeeTilEhDeh for example.

I get that people are disillusioned by UK politics. A two party fight, where both have had to claim the middle ground to be electable.

But what exactly is different in Scotland? We have two realistic governments, both of whom are centre right. The political landscape in iScotland is going to deliver more of the same.

I'm not a No voter but spoiling my ballot.

[ayrmad]

SNP policy is central to the whole debate because there is no credible alternative to an SNP government.

Who else would lead iScotland?

Certainly not Labour, the Fib Dems or the Tories.

It's not central to anything, we are voting for what's best for us over the next century or 2 not a few years.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

No, you said right of centre, so that's wrong. Labour are right of centre, as defined by their policies and rhetoric. What makes the SNP right of centre? Or are you stupid enough to contend that there are no major left of centre parties in Scotland?

How about their economic policies?

[Apache Don]

It's not central to anything, we are voting for what's best for us over the next century or 2 not a few years.

Exactly.

[Baxter Parp]

SNP policy is central to the whole debate because there is no credible alternative to an SNP government.

Who else would lead iScotland?

Certainly not Labour, the Fib Dems or the Tories.

Why not?

[Baxter Parp]

How about their economic policies?

Which ones. More than one, if possible.

[Confidemus]

Worrying about left wing/right wing in the manner H_B is engaging in is middle class hand wringing.

The only important thing is whether there are policies which help the weakest and most vulnerable in our society.

At the moment they are being bent over and shafted on a daily basis before being offered up in a demonised form as the source of all our economic woes.

Which of the SNP and Labour has the best policies for handling that?

For me it's the SNP.

This, for me, is the driving force behind Independence.

A socially just country, where the poor and vulnerable aren't punished for the mistakes of the rich.

The SNP DO offer the best policies for these things and it's as good a place as any to start in a new iScotland.

Bus regulation can wait. Child poverty, austerity and foodbanks can't.

[banterman86]

It appears to me no one has been able to name a major economic policy were the SNP are to the left of Miliband. That's ok,it;s not necessarily a bad thing or anything, I just find it curious taht instead of people accepting as such they deny it.

It's not always possible to compare exact policies to establish left/right when they start from completely different positions.

For example, didn't Milliband say he wanted to bring tuition fees down to £6k? He could pencil that down under lowering tuition fees if he wanted but the hypothetical England of Ed Milliband would still be to the right of the SNP.

I don't see anything on the table from Labour to suggest that they would take the country left of Scotland. The only argument for that is taxation policies, which Labour might bring in and which an SNP-lead iScotland wouldn't go higher than. Pretty weak stuff.

Firstly,, not sure about to the "left of scotland" - we aren't a block vote.

But you;re right about starting postions actually - I'm not convinced about the SNP "defending the NHS from privatisation" because all they relaly ahve doen is protect the Scottish status quo perpetuated by...Labour!

Policies such as council tax and corporation tax should be seen through the lens of the local politics: Council tax freezes are popular with the electorate and have the effect of denying power to Labour led councils where you have the local chain of command that has local power power invested in the MP - it's a way of circumventing Holyrood to an extent (it's why devolved council powers featured prominently in Labour devo policies - they don't think they can win back Holyrood and want to dilute 'toytown' as much as possible). So to me it looks like a long line of SNP policies designed to re-cretae Holyrood as a centre of gravity for Scottish politics, I'd hope that after independence that lack of confidence (which is what it is) would vanish, but then they have shown a tendency to cnetralise which I dissaprove of. Likewise, cutting corporation tax immediately after Indy is not the worst idea in terms of economic security, albeit not a policy I approve of in a broad sense - but it's something you might have to live with in order to smooth over 'jitters' in the business community.

I find that quote a concerning attitude tbh, I'm all for power being passed down to councils, regardless of their poltical make up. I find it a strange postion for a Indendendence supporter to be in to be in favour of more localised democracy and power through indy, but not through greater powers for local government.

'Pledging'... erm, yes, that certainly convinces me that a generation of Labour's right-centre has been put to bed, by the mid-term ramblings of an electoral lightweight. Much like Wendy Alexander's (?) 'pledge' to take the SNP on in a referendum, then.

Pledges and actions are two very different things, and Labour's track record on promoting the interests of the rich and increasing inequality despite a decade of unprecedented, favourable economic conditions are extremely well-documented.

Alexander has arguably be proven right on that score. An interesting what if.

Yeah, all we have is pledges for now, but i;m not conivnced Miliband can backtrack on a whole agenda which sees rising taxes and market interventiion (however small) at the heart of it.

And as I've said, polcies change, sometimes even when the main players don;t. Alex Salmond didn;t run in 2007 or 11 on "a penny for Scotland", he has shifted his postion on currency as well. These things can change.

Bus regulation can wait. Child poverty, austerity and foodbanks can't.

Firstly, child poverty could be targeted at holyrood right now - of the SNP had implemented their smaller class sizes polciy, for exampel, that could have a huge effect. Dittio if we built more housing. These would be long term, generational solutions of course.

But there is no reason bus regulation (for example) has to wait. As I've noted several times, the Scottish government are continuing to govern, and in some cases (corroboration) quite radically, in other cases, (the bedroom tax ) effectively. even yesterday we saw the SNP announce the pilot of a potentially radical and controversial scheme regarding domestic abuse.

[Colkitto]

Yet another story (that nobody is talking about ) on whether Cameron will quit if there is a No vote.

This time from the BBC....

David Cameron has signalled he would not quit as prime minister in the event of a "Yes" vote in the Scottish independence referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27339515

[renton]

I find that quote a concerning attitude tbh, I'm all for power being passed down to councils, regardless of their poltical make up. I find it a strange postion for a Indendendence supporter to be in to be in favour of more localised democracy and power through indy, but not through greater powers for local government.

That's not my position though, I'm simply trying to put forward why I think the CT freeze is so important to the SNP right now. The battle is between the SNP trying to turn Holyrood into a credible centre of gravity for government in Scotland and the Scottish Labour MPs trying to find ways of bypassing Holyrood by investing more power in local councils (for the first time in Labour history!) where they wield real influence.

[renton]

It appears to me no one has been able to name a major economic policy were the SNP are to the left of Miliband. That's ok,it;s not necessarily a bad thing or anything, I just find it curious taht instead of people accepting as such they deny it.

Firstly,, not sure about to the "left of scotland" - we aren't a block vote.

But you;re right about starting postions actually - I'm not convinced about the SNP "defending the NHS from privatisation" because all they relaly ahve doen is protect the Scottish status quo perpetuated by...Labour!

Except that Labour were not bequething a status quo, they were on a journey towards greater privatisation in the NHS, which was halted and reversed by the SNP. Scottish Labour were certainly slower in accepting competitive, private health providers in the NHS, but neither were they immune. There is no reason to think they would not have continued on the same path as UK Labour, albeit at a slower pace. The SNP have put the scottish NHS on a different vector altogether.

As for your first point, people have every right to compare the known records of both parties in government (given the fact that the current Labour front bench is mostly made up of junior ministers from the last time out) and come to their conclusions, as I said before, there is no doubt Milliband is edging his way leftwards, but how far he gets is one thing, and how much his pronouncements are translated into actual policy another.

[banterman86]

That's not my position though, I'm simply trying to put forward why I think the CT freeze is so important to the SNP right now. The battle is between the SNP trying to turn Holyrood into a credible centre of gravity for government in Scotland and the Scottish Labour MPs trying to find ways of bypassing Holyrood by investing more power in local councils (for the first time in Labour history!) where they wield real influence.

But that second point is a conclusion you have come to because of your dislikeand cynicism towards the Labour party, rather than the actual policy itself.

What major areas are "bypassing" Holyrood to councils under Labour proposals? I saw the work program and soemthing else...whcih I can;t remeber.