Scottish Independence

[banterman86]

I've always found your take on local government pretty interesting VT - policy set and budgets approved in holyrood is your preference right? With Councils being nothing more than an administrative vehicle?

[vikingTON]

Yes, and a drastic reduction in the number of councillors, equipped only with (subject to appeal) powers over planning and other direct local bullshit. Even in those areas they generally can't be trusted to operate competently.

[banterman86]

Yes, and a drastic reduction in the number of councillors, equipped only with (subject to appeal) powers over planning and other direct local bullshit. Even in those areas they generally can't be trusted to operate competently.

Mm, I don't really agree with that but each to their own.

The points on child poverty though - there is no magic wand for it. Smaller classes and housing would make a difference, it could be tackled now but it isn;t.

I also disagree on the CT freeze, it's regressive and has cut into council budgets, but I agree my main issue has been the lack of reform, and i think we will see LIT in some form after september.

[Confidemus]

Could you provide some evidence that people have their benefits stopped "because the ATOS-appointed Doctor says they can lift a finger and press a button, therefore they can work"

My mother's friend was told this was the reason why her ESA payments stopped. She had worked in an office, but physically could no longer do this due to a degenerative back and hip condition. This was backed up by her GP, her physiotherapist and the pain clinic at the hospital.

But ATOS stated that because she could "lift a finger and press a button", she could work and therefore had her benefits stopped.

She is now being treated for depression in addition to her back condition.

Now, if you think I'm telling porkies, feel free to continue your puppy dog routine.

[vikingTON]

Mm, I don't really agree with that but each to their own.

The points on child poverty though - there is no magic wand for it. Smaller classes and housing would make a difference, it could be tackled now but it isn;t.

I also disagree on the CT freeze, it's regressive and has cut into council budgets, but I agree my main issue has been the lack of reform, and i think we will see LIT in some form after september.

You said it would make a "huge difference" - there is in fact little, if any, evidence that child poverty would be affected by lower class sizes. Could lower class sizes improve educational attainment across the board? Possibly. Does it follow that this possible improvement would close the already decisive gap between the rich and poor that is established at a much lower age? Nope. Putting someone in a shiny new house doesn't stop them being financially poor, nor does it change the patterns of behaviour and leisure time of the parents, which are the crucial pre-school factors shaping educational attainment. Neither policy then even remotely deals with child poverty, nor the consequences that follow.

You have yet to account for the decade of above-inflation council tax hikes waved through by your party in government. A far worse and financially damaging policy for taxpayers across every band (which weren't IIRC substantially raised either), not to mention regressively impacting those with larger property values (such as the retired) with low incomes. So I very much doubt the SNP's successful council tax freeze will be subject to any complaints of 'regression' from a party that did absolutely nothing to curb council pressure on budgets, including those of the the poor and pensioners, while in office.

[vikingTON]

I guess this pretty much boils down Labour's modern political philosophy: 'Yes, we'll let you get fleeced by local authorities... so long as it's not regressive fleecing! (Unless you're old or on any other form of disproportionately low income, or struggle to make ends meet as it is - tough luck.)"

And to think it lost the last Scottish election by a humiliating, unprecedented landslide to an incumbent party.

[vikingTON]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6231452.stm

The above sets out why the current shrieking about 'council cutbacks!' doesn't wash: in the good years they fattened themselves by an average 51% tax hike over ten years - a decade not known for rampant inflation either. The onus, then, is upon councils to have made better use of the money they ridiculously squeezed out of their tax base, as well as the continued inflated income from their 2006/07 tax hikes.

Unsurprisingly they didn't: because they're utterly incompetent joke bodies. They have absolutely no-one to blame but themselves.

[Mr Bairn]

My mother's friend was told this was the reason why her ESA payments stopped. She had worked in an office, but physically could no longer do this due to a degenerative back and hip condition. This was backed up by her GP, her physiotherapist and the pain clinic at the hospital.

But ATOS stated that because she could "lift a finger and press a button", she could work and therefore had her benefits stopped.

She is now being treated for depression in addition to her back condition.

Now, if you think I'm telling porkies, feel free to continue your puppy dog routine.

Adequate proof of your "mother's friend." I'm assuming your mother has "hundreds of thousands" of these friends?

[strichener]

Adequate proof of your "mother's friend." I'm assuming your mother has "hundreds of thousands" of these friends?

Yep and every one a Yes voter I believe.....

[banterman86]

You said it would make a "huge difference" - there is in fact little, if any, evidence that child poverty would be affected by lower class sizes. Could lower class sizes improve educational attainment across the board? Possibly. Does it follow that this possible improvement would close the already decisive gap between the rich and poor that is established at a much lower age? Nope. Putting someone in a shiny new house doesn't stop them being financially poor, nor does it change the patterns of behaviour and leisure time of the parents, which are the crucial pre-school factors shaping educational attainment. Neither policy then even remotely deals with child poverty, nor the consequences that follow.

You have yet to account for the decade of above-inflation council tax hikes waved through by your party in government. A far worse and financially damaging policy for taxpayers across every band (which weren't IIRC substantially raised either), not to mention regressively impacting those with larger property values (such as the retired) with low incomes. So I very much doubt the SNP's successful council tax freeze will be subject to any complaints of 'regression' from a party that did absolutely nothing to curb council pressure on budgets, including those of the the poor and pensioners, while in office.

As I said, there is no magic wand. they would help, as would many,many other policies. the point is action could be taken on these two issues in Scotland now. indeed one is an election pledge of the current Scottish government

I'm not a supporter of council tax in it's current form,freeze or not, and have posted many times i think it's a debate Scotland needs to be having. I think even before the freeze the banding was a serious problem (the top band proeprty value is rather low if I recall correctly)

My criticism of the freeze, aside from it;s regressive impact, is that it hasn't been delivered in the way the SNP intitally intended it - as a temprary measure whilst LIT was pushed through. that LIT remains of the agenda after 7 years of freezes, and the SNP in a majority, is pretty disppaointing.

I compared Miliband's propsed energy freeze to it as well - it;s a nice wee manifesto pledge, but it;s true usefulness is the reform that takes place whilst the freeze is happening.

[vikingTON]

How would it help? You've demonstrated absolutely no valid arguments to show that either back of a fag packet idea would actually reduce child poverty, or the effects of child poverty.

The Council tax freeze was intended to be replaced by a LIT in the first term - the Lib Dems, in one of their many reasons for their slide into permanent political oblivion, opposed a similar policy to their own because of their bizarro localist-federalist concerns. It is obviously not going to be raised this side of the referendum. Until then, councils will have to 'make do' with the huge increases Labour signed off on between 1997 and 2007. The only organisation then, at fault for 'regressive cutbacks' are the councils, many of which have been Labour controlled (though I doubt any other party does a more competent job, council candidates are generally gibbering goons).

[banterman86]

How would it help? You've demonstrated absolutely no valid arguments to show that either back of a fag packet idea would actually reduce child poverty, or the effects of child poverty.

The Council tax freeze was intended to be replaced by a LIT in the first term - the Lib Dems, in one of their many reasons for their slide into permanent political oblivion, opposed a similar policy to their own because of their bizarro localist-federalist concerns. It is obviously not going to be raised this side of the referendum. Until then, councils will have to 'make do' with the huge increases Labour signed off on between 1997 and 2007. The only organisation then, at fault for 'regressive cutbacks' are the councils, many of which have been Labour controlled (though I doubt any other party does a more competent job, council candidates are generally gibbering goons).

http://nctwatch.wordpress.com/tag/child-poverty/page/3/

"An independent report for the Scottish Parliament’s Local Government and Finance Committee on child poverty in Scotland has raised concerns over the current UK benefits system and the failure of work to ensure low income parents are better off. The report showed children in Scotland are more likely to miss out on experiences of childhood because of poverty than those across the UK and that for many parents in poverty entering employment meant a loss of income.

Alongside tackling the problem of benefits to reduce income poverty it highlighted building council and social housing, free school meals and smaller class sizes as key steps that could reduce the social rather than financial poverty. SNP MSP Alasdair Allan and SNP Work and Pensions spokesman John Mason MP have voiced their concerns that Labour’s proposed benefits reforms will make the situation worse."

As for CT - it's interesting reform was never considered in those early years, particualy when Holyrood was more likely to be co-operative.

[vikingTON]

'Social poverty' is a meaningless term. The issue is financial poverty and parental behaviour and access to facilities - no amount of free school meals in the world is going to help little Chantelle from Castlemilk compete with her counterparts from middle-class Bearsden families.

[banterman86]

'Social poverty' is a meaningless term. The issue is financial poverty and parental behaviour and access to facilities - no amount of free school meals in the world is going to help little Chantelle from Castlemilk compete with her counterparts from middle-class Bearsden families.

I think competing is getting ahead of ourselves if I'm honest, I'd rather see Chantelle from Castlemilk just be given a fairer fighting chance and then we can look at closing the gap further. Smaller class sizes would mean she gets more attention from a teacher for her educational needs.

[Confidemus]

Adequate proof of your "mother's friend." I'm assuming your mother has "hundreds of thousands" of these friends?

Use your imagination and extrapolate over the populace of Scotland. It shouldn't be too hard, you've done a wonderful job on this forum with your over active imagination thus far.

[KD1711]

Being scottish in 2014 is like being a victim of domestic violence!

"We'll change"
"We'll do more"
"We're better together"
"Please don't leave us"
"You'll not survive on your own"
"You need us"

It doesn't matter how many increased powers Westminster offer, it still wont be as many as an independent country!

Vote yes!

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Kind of, yes. Free market neoliberalism will determine whether your bins are taken out by a private company on a contract or an in-house team run by the council.

For once we are in agreement.

[Apache Don]

Oh FFS! How much of this is making any difference? There are 2 or 3 confirmed No voters posting on here regularly and the 'clue' is - 'confirmed'. Totally pointless exercise. This, is just a time consuming distraction.

''Should Scotland be an independent Country?'' Yes or No? Easy

[Apache Don]

Fucking YES!

[Fotbawmad]

Kind of, yes. Free market neoliberalism will determine whether your bins are taken out by a private company on a contract or an in-house team run by the council.

Free market neoliberalism doesn't work, as we've learned over the last few decades, because it makes people lazy. By expecting the state to step in and provide everyone for them, and as a result you'll get a large over reaching government as a byproduct. Personally, I think we'll see neolibertarianism start to become the new fad over the next 20-30 years. Once we see a total (and predictable) collapse of the current system.