The Arbroath Thread

[AJ77]

I can remember coming onto this thread when McIntyre was appointed and got slated for saying he was a poor appointment and Arbroath could do better, oh well. Really hope yous don’t get stuck in league 1 for long really good club and always enjoyed my trips there.

[RedLichtie86]

Damage was done in the summer 2022 transfer window onwards.

The club failed to build upon a strong squad with the prizemoney we had earned for finishing 2nd (+£400k).

Brought players such as Corfe, Fosu, Isiaka in that all will agree were nowhere remotely good enough.

Brought in more in the January. Some ok. Some more of the same shite. Just survived by the skin of our teeth.

And then start of this season we go in with no LB, 3 fit defenders, No DM's, No creative players and more signings that are clearly not up to the task.

Jim McIntyre has had the 1 transfer window to fix 3 windows worth of squad regression. But went into that window with a huge injury crisis, a tired team that had played 5 games in 4 weeks and only been in the job a month.

Hardly any time to prep or evaluate the team fully having just played United with 1 defender who has a broken toe and with 2 outfield subs.... Obviously his main priority was getting defensive players in. Plus the loss of Hylton reduced our attacking options. He ends up bringing in some players who are not fully fit and having to throw them straight in only to have more injuries in the first game or 2 of the window opening. Back to 1 defender and back to square one. And club budget didnt allow for wholesale changes to the squad with players not wanting to leave or join. We were left to piss with the cock we got.

Now he has had the time to get players back from injury and training but its clear to see the squad still has the same issues as at the start of this season. Lack of creativity. No capable defensive midfielders. Defence not up to the task with experienced players such as ToB and Little nowhere near their 21/22 high.

Jim has had very bad results. And thats not good enough under normal circumstances. But the squad he has is clearly not up the task of performing week in week out.

I do feel he has to be given the chance to make wholesale changes in the summer. We have 6/7 players signed for next season so he will have a big task to rebuild it the way he wants anyways. And the club needs to back him to get it right. There has probably been players identified/contacted about playing for us next season already when their contracts end but not knowing what division that is nothing is set in stone yet.

Another new manager would have to start all that again which could be a bigger clusterfuck than the summer 22 transfer window.

This season has been a clusterfuck with poor recruitment, injury after injury, tactical mistakes and shite performances.. Doubt sacking Jim will change any of that.

Edited March 16 by RedLichtie86

[Passionate]

To be fair you gave us a s much as we could handle for 35 minutes,  up front and wide players is decent enough and have our defenders are really tough game throughout,  but your defence and midfield are painfully slow,  Little looks done and TOB who everybody admires was poor again..  Bird up top looks a decent player..

ICT look a club with a lot of issues going on,  surely must have an outside chance for 9th

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

Yet another relegation on the bold Jimbo's cv.

Don't say you were never warned.

Thank you.

[ecto]

2 minutes ago, RedLichtie86 said:

Damage was done in the summer 2022 transfer window onwards.

The club failed to build upon a strong squad with the prizemoney we had earned for finishing 2nd (+£400k).

Brought players such as Corfe, Fosu, Isiaka in that all will agree were nowhere remotely good enough.

Brought in more in the January. Some ok. Some more of the same shite. Just survived by the skin of our teeth.

And then start of this season we go in with no LB, 3 fit defenders, No DM's, No creative players and more signings that are clearly not up to the task.

Jim McIntyre has had the 1 transfer window to fix 3 windows worth of squad regression. But went into that window with a huge injury crisis, a tired team that had played 5 games in 4 weeks and only been in the job a month.

Hardly any time to prep or evaluate the team fully having just played United with 1 defender who has a broken toe and with outfield subs.... Obviously his main priority was getting defensive players in. Plus the loss of Hylton reduced our attacking options. He ends up bringing in some players who are not fully fit and having to throw them straight in only to have more injuries in the first game or 2 of the window opening. Back to square one. And club budget didnt allow for wholesale changes to the squad with players not wanting to leave or join. We were left to piss with the cock we got.

Now he has had the time to get players back from injury and training but its clear to see the squad still has the same issues as at the start of this season. Lack of creativity. No capable defensive midfielders. Defence not up to the task with experienced players such as ToB and Little nowhere near their 21/22 high.

Jim has had very bad results. And thats not good enough under normal circumstances. But the squad he has is clearly not up the task of performing week in week out.

I do feel he has to be given the chance to make wholesale changes in the summer. We have 6/7 players signed for next season so he will have a big task to rebuild it the way he wants anyways. And the club needs to back him to get it right. There has probably been players identified/contacted about playing for us next season already when their contracts end but not knowing what division that is nothing is set in stone yet.

Another new manager would have to start all that again which could be a bigger clusterfuck than the summer 22 transfer window.

This season has been a clusterfuck with poor recruitment, injury after injury, tactical mistakes and shite performances.. Doubt sacking Jim will change any of that.

You cannot trust McIntyre with the rebuild, absolutely not, would like to think, he will be sacked before the weekend is out, we have got this wrong, we move on #Mcintyreout 

[ecto]

1 minute ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Yet another relegation on the bold Jimbo's cv.

Don't say you were never warned.

Thank you.

You did, now f**k off, ta

[ExiledLichtie]

9 minutes ago, RedLichtie86 said:

Damage was done in the summer 2022 transfer window onwards.

Jim has had very bad results. And thats not good enough under normal circumstances. But the squad he has is clearly not up the task of performing week in week out.

I do feel he has to be given the chance to make wholesale changes in the summer. We have 6/7 players signed for next season so he will have a big task to rebuild it the way he wants anyways. And the club needs to back him to get it right. There has probably been players identified/contacted about playing for us next season already when their contracts end but not knowing what division that is nothing is set in stone yet.

I agree with much of that.  The failings were not all his fault.  I don't think the Dundee fans were 100% right at all.  However, I don't see why he should get the chance.  He actually seemed to do much better when we didn't have any outfield subs.  Since he's got a bigger squad back, its been embarrassing.  Better to get a fresh face in, someone who won't be tainted (fairly or not) with the relegation.  

 

Edited to add, I'd just keep him in post till the summer.  Its too late now, and we don't want to taint another potential manager.

Edited March 16 by ExiledLichtie

[Tattie36]

4 minutes ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Yet another relegation on the bold Jimbo's cv.

Don't say you were never warned.

Thank you.

Aye you did. All we asked was time to give him a proper crack at it with his own players and a full squad.

He’s had that time and it turns out you were probably correct. However there was no way of establishing that back when you were telling us.

[RedLichtie86]

There is a chance, however remote that might be, we could win our next 5 matches (Partick, Dunfermline, Airdrie, ICT and Ayr) and be above Ayr and ICT (assuming they dont pick up any points) going into the last 3 matches.

We all know how mad this division is for results.

[kentish]

5 minutes ago, RedLichtie86 said:

There is a chance, however remote that might be, we could win our next 5 matches (Partick, Dunfermline, Airdrie, ICT and Ayr) and be above Ayr and ICT (assuming they dont pick up any points) going into the last 3 matches.

We all know how mad this division is for results.

I'd just like one win, fact is literally three wins  isn't it in 6 months. By any standards and yardstick that is grim. Let's re group I for one would rather have a decent campaign in div 1 than this.

[ecto]

4 minutes ago, kentish said:

I'd just like one win, fact is literally three wins  isn't it in 6 months. By any standards and yardstick that is grim. Let's re group I for one would rather have a decent campaign in div 1 than this.

Than the last two campaigns, surely 

I thought it would be unlikely we got less points than last season, now it highly likely 

[afc_36_0]

11 minutes ago, RedLichtie86 said:

There is a chance, however remote that might be, we could win our next 5 matches (Partick, Dunfermline, Airdrie, ICT and Ayr) and be above Ayr and ICT (assuming they dont pick up any points) going into the last 3 matches.

We all know how mad this division is for results.

We’ve got more chance of 2 teams going into administration and getting points deductions than winning our next 5 games. We are relegated, 10th, bottom, fucked.

As said mcintyre has had a tough time but i think its clear to see he’s not the man for the job and we should cut our losses. A lot of the players need to take responsibility and have been nowhere near the levels we know they can reach, big rebuild needed.

[timlichtie]

30 minutes ago, Tattie36 said:

 

He’s had that time and it turns out you were probably correct. However there was no way of establishing that back when you were telling us.

There is absolutely no way we can judge the new management team on their games so far. The players who have returned are far from match fit and have barely played together. I didn’t see any lack of effort today, just some awful defending. 
We are almost certainly bound for League 1. Once we have rebuilt this summer then I’ll be critical if we’re struggling at Xmas.

[ellichtie]

With the quality of the players he’s signed already I have absolutely no faith in him to be able to rebuild the squad. 100% agree he took the job under mental circumstances but he’s done nothing since to make me think he’s the right man. The Raith games aside we’ve been absolutely pathetic.

[ExiledLichtie]

7 minutes ago, ellichtie said:

With the quality of the players he’s signed already I have absolutely no faith in him to be able to rebuild the squad. 100% agree he took the job under mental circumstances but he’s done nothing since to make me think he’s the right man. The Raith games aside we’ve been absolutely pathetic.

I would say that we did see a big uptick in performances when he first arrived.  The team looked much more tactically flexible, and we were playing decent stuff.   Almost inexplicably, the more players we've got back from injury, the worse the performances have got!

[SimonLichtie]

1 hour ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Almost inexplicably, the more players we've got back from injury, the worse the performances have got!

Match fitness and not being injured are simply two massively different things, and I think a lot of us are really underestimating that. Usually when a player's been out injured they need 3/4 games to get back up to speed, and we're also doubling that up with trying to get the players working together and forming partnerships. It's basically impossible - so many of our squad are struggling for various reasons. It's the absolute opposite situation to the recent past of having 3/4 seasons with a very regular starting 11 and anyone coming in / out through a rare injury or a signing would have a much easier time of it getting up to speed/ building up understanding with 10 others players who already have that.

I think the above really is the biggest factor in the last four months of the season, but of course there's a multitude of different things that have also played a large part. If we had the luck with injuries and other things that we had 3/4 years ago, despite how poor we've been over the season I think we'd be well within the pack of 4/5 others above us. Regardless, it wouldn't change the fact that we're missing key players in key positions, that our old guard are really creaking at points and that we've been competing above our station for the vast majority of the last 5/6 years. We were never going to consistently compete in this division without this happening sooner or later due to the nature of it.

Regardless of if we go down or not, we have to be keeping 10 and signing 10 type thing. It's important we don't lose all continuity and the basis of what we have as it takes years to form anything from scratch, but we certainly need to be adding as much as we keep. We're also going to definitely lose players we'd want to stay. Realistically, a mixture of what I want to see and what is realistic I think would look roughly as follows:

Darren Lyon

Aaron Steele

Colin Hamilton

Scott Stewart

Tam O'Brien

David Gold

Mikey McKenna

Innes Murray

Craig Slater

Leighton McIntosh

I think we can/ should keep the above 10, with others moving on who we might like to keep for various reasons, and maybe another 1/2 staying who aren't listed.

Edited March 16 by SimonLichtie

[RedLichtie86]

Lets look at McIntyres signings.

Innes Murray (CM/RW)- Signed Jan 1st when we were down to the bare bones. Hadnt played since Nov 25th. Nothing spectacular about him but an extra body that we needed.

Gordon Walker (RB) - Signed Jan 1st. Again another signed when at the bare bones and desperate for more defenders as we had 1 left. Clearly unfit when he signed as hadnt played since Nov 10th and thrown straight in. Injured after 140 mins. Hard to say if good enough as being unfit then back from injury.

Zak Delaney (CB/LB) - Signed before the Ayr game on the 13th Jan. Came to us looking for game time as not used at ICT after being a regular last season. Many fans happy with this signing. A LB we badly needed and then injured after 12 mins. Today his first game back and 90 mins. 

Kyle Robinson (ST)- Signed before the Ayr game on the 13th Jan. Unfit as previous game was 3rd Nov. Another option up top after loss of Hylton. Probably seen as a better option than Turan. Hasnt worked out so far.

(Loan) Adam Mackinnon (DM/CM)- Again signed (Loan) before the Ayr game. Signed to bolster the midfield as lack of defensive midfield options. Not worked out as well as hoped but a better option than Jacobs and Balde (who was sold)

(Loan) Charlie Reilly (LW) - signed to get game time before ICT match last month. Has looked good.

(Loan) Max Boruc (GK) - signed as backup to Gaston. I get the love for Ali Adams but the manager wanted another option. Has had a poor run. Understandable with the comical defending in front of him but he has made big mistakes too. Overall a shite. signing. Have heard background issues with Ali made this transfer happen.

Over all out of the 26 man squad we have he has signed 7 players with 3 being on loan.

Of the 4 permanent signings - 2 were brought in to help out the defensive problems (we were all desperate for) but got injured after their 1st and 2nd games - 2 others gave us options in the team when we were down to 14 fit players (1 ok. 1 gash)

Of the 3 loans signings 1 was signed to give is us options when down to 14 fit players (better than Jacobs) 1 was signed as direct replacement for Hylton and 1 was signed for competition for Gaston.

Overall Jim in his time with the club has had to work with the same players the last manager. Most players he has had to bring in (5) was due to chronic shortages in the team due to injuries and even then he lost 2 of them for weeks. 1 was to improve the attack (Reilly) and 1 was due to background issues. 

Clearly we cant judge him on this transfer window om how he will perform in the next one given what he was forced to do. Players such as Jacobs and Turan shouldnt have been signed and are not good enough but have been kept on due to lack of available players or they dont want to leave (Turan turned down a move to Forfar)

McIntyre needs to be judged on a proper transfer window. Not one rushed and in desperation.

[relichtie]

6 minutes ago, SimonLichtie said:

Match fitness and not being injured are simply two massively different things, and I think a lot of us are really underestimating that. Usually when a player's been out injured they need 3/4 games to get back up to speed, and we're also doubling that up with trying to get the players working together and forming partnerships. It's basically impossible - so many of our squad are struggling for various reasons. It's the absolute opposite situation to the recent past of having 3/4 seasons with a very regular starting 11 and anyone coming in / out through a rare injury or a signing would have a much easier time of it getting up to speed/ building up understanding with 10 others players who already have that.

I think the above really is the biggest factor in the last four months of the season, but of course there's a multitude of different things that have also played a large part. If we had the luck with injuries and other things that we had 3/4 years ago, despite how poor we've been over the season I think we'd be well within the pack of 4/5 others above us. Regardless, it wouldn't change the fact that we're missing key players in key positions, that our old guard are really creaking at points and that we've been competing above our station for the vast majority of the last 5/6 years. We were never going to consistently compete in this division without this happening sooner or later due to the nature of it.

Regardless of if we go down or not, we have to be keeping 10 and signing 10 type thing. It's important we don't lose all continuity and the basis of what we have as it takes years to form anything from scratch, but we certainly need to be adding as much as we keep. We're also going to definitely lose players we'd want to stay. Realistically, a mixture of what I want to see and what is realistic I think would look roughly as follows:

Darren Lyon

Aaron Steele

Scott Stewart

Tam O'Brien

David Gold

Mikey McKenna

Innes Murray

Craig Slater

Leighton McIntosh

I think we can/ should keep the above 9, with others moving on who we might like to keep for various reasons, and another 1/2 staying who aren't listed.

Innes Murray??? You're having a laugh. Better with Stowe who should improve with experience. 

[relichtie]

I don't think we were ambitious enough after the Campbells left. Did we ask Scott Brown (who went to Ayr) or anyone of similar stature.? His contacts or someone in the same bracket would have far more contacts at the top that JMac. Loanees from Celtic or other top clubs instead of Irish lower level or players from lower level clubs could have given us the quality to turn around the unbalanced squad left when the Campbells left imo. 

[SimonLichtie]

11 minutes ago, relichtie said:

Innes Murray??? You're having a laugh. Better with Stowe who should improve with experience. 

I could write an essay on this  

Innes Murray has proven himself as a good quality L1 player, and has had a really good football upbringing that clearly shows. A good example IMO is the first 45 down at Ayr when he was playing on the right hand side while carrying an injury. Despite being not match fit, and not really fit at all to be playing, he was absolutely spot on positionally and on and off the ball read the game really well despite being 2 yards off the pace. He's played 7 games for us, and in all of them been in a bit part team with players he barely knows while carrying an injury at worst or 'just' not being match fit at best.

Mark Stowe has proved himself at East of Scotland level, and in my opinion really struggles on and off the ball (but has shown improvement gradually as the season has progressed). He has been match fit and injury free all season, one of our only players to be in this position, yet ultimately hasn't really contributed anything bar the Raith Rovers again.

We haven't seen Innes Murray play a single minute for us this season while fully fit so it's impossible to really judge anything from him. So looking outside of his time at the club - he's proven himself a good quality L1 player. Above that level we don't know. We've seen a lot of Mark Stowe this season, and sadly he's proved he's not a Championship quality player, we know he's quality at East of Scotland level but in between the two levels we've really no idea.

In terms of improvement - I don't know why Mark Stowe's more likely to improve with experience than Innes Murray? They're both in their mid 20s, a years difference between them.

All is, of course, just my opinion.   I'd love Stowe to prove me wrong - and of course if we drop down a level he may be a bit more up to it. However Murray is the proven L1 quality player, so if it was a binary choice there would only be one winner every time...... we can of course keep them both