All things Dundee FC

[harry94]

10 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Dundee are a bigger team than any of the provincial clubs and yet their squad is totally chronic.  Why is that?

Motherwell haven't been tearing up trees this season but out of the entire Dundee squad I'd take Scott Bain and that's about it.

I don't think the squad is that chronic tbh. I think a lot of the players in our team could/would find employment at this level and could be adjusted to do a job for other teams.

I just think it's very unspectacular (quantity instead of quality) and has the fundamental issue of being very weak up front (and out wide). Other teams have signed smaller squads but have planned well for each position while we've just signed quite a lot of players and don't really know how to deploy them all together.

I said something similar about United last year too.

Hartley has done well to get us up and keep us stable (which many many managers have failed at) and identified a bit of talent but he's going to need to compromise on the way he wants to play to become effective.

[Louis Litt]

7 minutes ago, stumigoo said:

The Haber signing has all the hallmarks of a "f**k I need to be seen to be doing something" signing by Hartley.

I'm sure most Dundee fans will be of the opinion that an Arab's view on things is meaningless but I very much agree with CityDave's post earlier. The fact is that there is so little between most sides in the Premiership that all it takes is a serious upturn (or downturn) in form that it could define a team's season. Last year I genuinely felt that we had a reasonable squad but we were totally bereft of confidence and organisation (then we got desperate and it ended up in a shambles). A few wins and Dundee have a squad more than capable of finishing 6th but at the same time you could easily finish 11th depending on a run of form at the wrong time (I don't for a second think you will finish bottom). 

I think most clubs in Scotland run in quite short success cycles and I wonder if Hartley is coming to the end of his cycle at Dundee. It maybe does need a fresh set of ideas and a new way of looking at the squad. In saying that you could easily win three on the bounce and everything will be looking fine again.

Pretty much spot on. 

[Daydream]

The man's a goal machine. Headers, back heelers - think we can safely say we are staying up.

He's a big c**t. Yassss!

[Fifespud]

I don't think the squad is that chronic tbh. I think a lot of the players in our team could/would find employment at this level and could be adjusted to do a job for other teams.

I just think it's very unspectacular (quantity instead of quality) and has the fundamental issue of being very weak up front (and out wide). Other teams have signed smaller squads but have planned well for each position while we've just signed quite a lot of players and don't really know how to deploy them all together.

I said something similar about United last year too.

Hartley has done well to get us up and keep us stable (which many many managers have failed at) and identified a bit of talent but he's going to need to compromise on the way he wants to play to become effective.

I think the squad is chronic. Lots of questionable signings. Hartley seems to like a punt on players others want to swerve. You can start by looking at his first couple of recruits - McPake and Thomson. Both had just concluded a season of spectacular disaster at Hibs. If we are absolutely honest, and I realise McPake has folk hero status, neither have been or were a success. Phil Roberts, The Tank, Konrad etc etc.
How much was Greg Stewart's spectacular left foot papering over.
The most recent signing of Gomis is another one. Played about 50 games in the last 4 years. He is straight in the first team ahead of Julien and Godzilla - if we don't think they're good enough why not get rid of them and replace them?

Our squad looks far weaker than the one that took united down.

I looked at St Johnstone on Sunday and as unspectacular as they are everybody seemed to know what they were doing, they were able to pass the ball in neat triangles and get forward easily. We looked the total opposite.

[jagfox]

5 hours ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

That's Haber signed.

All part of the process...

[Paris Hilltoon]

The only positive that Jim Duffy has in his life its that he shagged Kirsty Gallagher. Kudos on that one James

This simply cannot be true. I've seen some ridiculous things in here, but thats outrageous.

[Shadow Play]

We do have a poor squad.  Too many similar type players.  Most importantly of all most of the new recruits are not any better than what we already have and in some cases they are worse.

There is no real problem having lots of similar type players if you have every position covered but we simply don't have that luxury.  We don't appear to have a creative midfielder or a suitable striker.  I know there has been an attempt to rectify the striker situation but the new signing was presumably available at the start of the season and presumably Hartley wasn't interested.  

Add to the fact we have no suitable cover for Bain and it looks to me that whatever the budget was it has not been spent wisely.

I very much hope I'm proved wrong by the way!

[harry94]

48 minutes ago, Fifespud said:

 

I think the squad is chronic. Lots of questionable signings. Hartley seems to like a punt on players others want to swerve. You can start by looking at his first couple of recruits - McPake and Thomson. Both had just concluded a season of spectacular disaster at Hibs. If we are absolutely honest, and I realise McPake has folk hero status, neither have been or were a success. Phil Roberts, The Tank, Konrad etc etc.
How much was Greg Stewart's spectacular left foot papering over.
The most recent signing of Gomis is another one. Played about 50 games in the last 4 years. He is straight in the first team ahead of Julien and Godzilla - if we don't think they're good enough why not get rid of them and replace them?

Our squad looks far weaker than the one that took united down.

I looked at St Johnstone on Sunday and as unspectacular as they are everybody seemed to know what they were doing, they were able to pass the ball in neat triangles and get forward easily. We looked the total opposite.

 

Many were on automated renewals after the league win. I don't feel that you are being very fair about the likes of Konrad and McPake. We were a team who had been appalling with, quite frankly, an appalling side and maybe the worst winners of that division ever. I don't entirely disagree with you on the signings this season but I think you're well off the mark to go back to McPake and Thomson as examples of bad signings. In the context that we bought that first batch, they mostly did the job expected of them.

Goalkeepers

Letheren

Twardzik

Gibson

Defenders

Benedictus

Cummins

Gallagher

Dyer

Irvine

Midfield

Conroy

Davidson

Hughes

McAlister

McBride

Riley

Reid

Bonnett-Johnson

Rae

Attackers

Monti

Doris

Boyle

Peaso

McIntosh

Nade

Wighton

Beattie

We had a squad that was nowhere near ready for top flight football. Of the players that he moved on, none of them have proved us wrong and apart from Nade, none have went on to play at this level again.

His initial signings in the first season were

14/15 Summer Window

In the context of meeting of improving the squad at the time and signing players who could cut it at this level, I would say:

Roberts - Failure

Stewart - Success

Thomson - Borderline (his contribution and higher win rate on the pitch may have kept us away from relegation in the first season, I would normally say failure but with what we had at the time - we needed instant quality)

McPake - Success (contributed to us staying up in the first year and has been an influential figure ever since)

Bain - Success

Ferry - Failure

McGinn - Success

McGowan - Success

Harkins - Success (contributed massively in his two seasons)

Tankulic - Failure

Konrad - Success (contributed consistently over two seasons)

Clarkson - Success (goals fired us to top 6)

I count that as initially 3 clear failures, a borderline and 8 success stories (with Harkins, Stewart, Bain, McGinn and McGowan all having quite substantial impacts on our team over the next couple of seasons. Even if you were to dispute some of that, I think that's quite a decent record from a manager. At the level we were at, we needed to do a lot of work and take some gambles. Roberts and Tankulic were gambles but so were Stewart and Bain.

Tea is ready so I won't go onto the rest for now but I genuinely feel that 15/16 had decent business too and wouldn't really fault him much there. Similar to the first season, I think he improved parts of the squad and despite finishing lower in the league (after fluking the top 6 by the Hamilton collapse in the first season and being a point away from repeating that last year), we added a good bit of value in the squad (even if it was Hemmings alone)

For me, Hartley's transfer business was good for 14-15 and 15-16 but he's done poorly at the losses of McGinn, Harkins, Stewart and Hemmings and botched this season. We never signed a direct replacement for McGinn (not hammering Kerr but he's not ready to be first choice in that position) and he never signed any strikers apart from Yordi who was intended to be a future project.

If we hadn't El Bakhtaoui, Vincent, Williams, O'Hara and Hateley would have almost certainly been signed for top flight sides in this league. Gomis had question marks but had a history of playing at a high level and would be expected to have found an equivalence. Duffy maybe wouldn't have and Yordi was signed being announced as a back-up option to have a year to get up to scratch.

With the exception of the last two, I don't think the rest were that bad. They are just the wrong collection of players at the wrong time.

[1320Lichtie]

This simply cannot be true. I've seen some ridiculous things in here, but thats outrageous.

Googled it after he said it and it seems to be a daft Scottish football rumour, fair play to the guy, even if he's no done it it's still impressive theres a rumour going about.

[Daydream]

1 hour ago, Fifespud said:

I looked at St Johnstone on Sunday and as unspectacular as they are everybody seemed to know what they were doing, they were able to pass the ball in neat triangles and get forward easily. We looked the total opposite.

 

I agree with this.  Along with ICT and Ross County these teams have competent players all over the park. Teams that have similar budgets to us.  

[Old Pack]

Fatty will turn it round

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, Old Pack said:

Fatty will turn it round

You think? He couldnt get a side with Bain, Stewart and Hemmings into the top six last season...

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

We were fucked when Harkins left. IMO.

Memories.......misty water coloured memories.......of the way we were.........

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Bigmouth Strikes Again

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

2 hours ago, jupe1407 said:

I do recall your previously erudite critique of Duffy 

I liked the guy as a player, and even in his first spell as manager before he fucked off and hilariously relegated Hibs, but the second spell was an utter shambles. 

I was maybe a bit harsh there, loved him as a player as well and was gutted when he did his cruciate at Ibrox, the managerial record though is a clusterfuck. IMO.

[ravabelli]

He'll need to be a miracle worker to turn things around with that squad. The league table doesn't lie and we're where we are because we are honking, pure and simple! We've far too many similar type players who aren't good enough or any better than each other. Hemmings and Stewart massively papered over the cracks last season and ask yourself....when was the last time you thought Hartley outwitted another manager or pulled off a tactical switch mid game that turned it in our favour?

[Fifespud]

Many were on automated renewals after the league win. I don't feel that you are being very fair about the likes of Konrad and McPake. We were a team who had been appalling with, quite frankly, an appalling side and maybe the worst winners of that division ever. I don't entirely disagree with you on the signings this season but I think you're well off the mark to go back to McPake and Thomson as examples of bad signings. In the context that we bought that first batch, they mostly did the job expected of them.

Goalkeepers

Letheren

Twardzik

Gibson

Defenders

Benedictus

Cummins

Gallagher

Dyer

Irvine

Midfield

Conroy

Davidson

Hughes

McAlister

McBride

Riley

Reid

Bonnett-Johnson

Rae

Attackers

Monti

Doris

Boyle

Peaso

McIntosh

Nade

Wighton

Beattie

We had a squad that was nowhere near ready for top flight football. Of the players that he moved on, none of them have proved us wrong and apart from Nade, none have went on to play at this level again.

His initial signings in the first season were

14/15 Summer Window

In the context of meeting of improving the squad at the time and signing players who could cut it at this level, I would say:

Roberts - Failure

Stewart - Success

Thomson - Borderline (his contribution and higher win rate on the pitch may have kept us away from relegation in the first season, I would normally say failure but with what we had at the time - we needed instant quality)

McPake - Success (contributed to us staying up in the first year and has been an influential figure ever since)

Bain - Success

Ferry - Failure

McGinn - Success

McGowan - Success

Harkins - Success (contributed massively in his two seasons)

Tankulic - Failure

Konrad - Success (contributed consistently over two seasons)

Clarkson - Success (goals fired us to top 6)

I count that as initially 3 clear failures, a borderline and 8 success stories (with Harkins, Stewart, Bain, McGinn and McGowan all having quite substantial impacts on our team over the next couple of seasons. Even if you were to dispute some of that, I think that's quite a decent record from a manager. At the level we were at, we needed to do a lot of work and take some gambles. Roberts and Tankulic were gambles but so were Stewart and Bain.

Tea is ready so I won't go onto the rest for now but I genuinely feel that 15/16 had decent business too and wouldn't really fault him much there. Similar to the first season, I think he improved parts of the squad and despite finishing lower in the league (after fluking the top 6 by the Hamilton collapse in the first season and being a point away from repeating that last year), we added a good bit of value in the squad (even if it was Hemmings alone)

For me, Hartley's transfer business was good for 14-15 and 15-16 but he's done poorly at the losses of McGinn, Harkins, Stewart and Hemmings and botched this season. We never signed a direct replacement for McGinn (not hammering Kerr but he's not ready to be first choice in that position) and he never signed any strikers apart from Yordi who was intended to be a future project.

If we hadn't El Bakhtaoui, Vincent, Williams, O'Hara and Hateley would have almost certainly been signed for top flight sides in this league. Gomis had question marks but had a history of playing at a high level and would be expected to have found an equivalence. Duffy maybe wouldn't have and Yordi was signed being announced as a back-up option to have a year to get up to scratch.

With the exception of the last two, I don't think the rest were that bad. They are just the wrong collection of players at the wrong time.

It's all about opinions and I disagree with you on some of the above and would l'd argue the 'haven't played at this level again' argument is a bit spurious given neither have 4 of the successes!

I'll also add Carreiro, Shenk, Hefferman, Meggat, Ross, Low, S McGinn and Loy plus a couple of loan signings - Healy and Calder. That's 10 which are pretty much failures.

[D TOTAL]

It's all about opinions and I disagree with you on some of the above and would l'd argue the 'haven't played at this level again' argument is a bit spurious given neither have 4 of the successes!

I'll also add Carreiro, Shenk, Hefferman, Meggat, Ross, Low, S McGinn and Loy plus a couple of loan signings - Healy and Calder. That's 10 which are pretty much failures.

I likeLow is a good nippy wee player is a real engine just has glass legs my only problem with him is he can play about 2/3 games then he's fecked for a month

I'd argue Healy could have been a real good addition before his injury as he look like a player capable of going forward and having a go

I also think Loy is worth a place in the first 11 we saw last season before hemmings finally pulled his finger oot Loy was on 7/8 goals in as many games so it's unfair the stick he gets he just can't play as a 1 top, he is very much a poacher kind of striker with a bit of help up front I have no doubt he'd score, most of loy's hate comes from the fact he's useless on the wing one of his weaker positions IMO

[Fifespud]

I likeLow is a good nippy wee player is a real engine just has glass legs my only problem with him is he can play about 2/3 games then he's fecked for a month

I'd argue Healy could have been a real good addition before his injury as he look like a player capable of going forward and having a go

To be honest I like Low as well but his fitness record pushes him into the failure column. Healy we just don't know about.

[D TOTAL]

Who gives a f**k? We need  Hartley to sort things now!. f**k all we can do about the past. Present is all that matters and right now we are bottom of the league where we deserve to be.

It's BEACUSE of past decisions where we are now

[harry94]

36 minutes ago, Fifespud said:

 

It's all about opinions and I disagree with you on some of the above and would l'd argue the 'haven't played at this level again' argument is a bit spurious given neither have 4 of the successes!

I'll also add Carreiro, Shenk, Hefferman, Meggat, Ross, Low, S McGinn and Loy plus a couple of loan signings - Healy and Calder. That's 10 which are pretty much failures.

 

It's very different though. 3 of the successes that haven't played at this level again who I think you are referring to are: Konrad - Playing at an equivalent level in the Swiss top flight; Harkins - key player for two seasons and contributed to a very good attack; Clarkson - ^^ . I don't see it as being spurious to note that other players played at a lower level in that time. They played for us and contributed then moved on - others were mostly playing part time football.

I think it's pretty harsh to apply a development signing like Carreiro to things. Healey and Calder were cheap short term loans and Healey actually broke through to the first 11 but was unlucky and took a nasty injury when he started to look useful. If you're going to put them down to being poor - every single manager in the league makes those sorts of signings all the time.

Ross was hailed as a very good signing after January last year and come onto a game quite a bit (I get the opposite opinion but I'd say he's our most under rated player tbh - think he'd be useful if we gave him a run in a proper role instead of the magical mystery system). I would also say it's a bit harsh putting Heffernan in there when he was signed as a stop gap for 6 months and was only really expected to complement other players (and I'd say he did as we did well in a few games with him leading the line) while we worked on signing someone better in the summer (i.e. Hemmings).

Not every player who doesn't become Bain, Stewart or Hemmings is a failure.