Inverness Caledonian Thistle F.C. vs Celtic F.C. // SC Semi Final

[Jacksgranda]

I'm starting to feel quite sorry for the (and I presume they exist) 'normal' Celtic fans. Imagine having to go and watch your team every week and having to share a stand with some of these nutters (presuming they go to games of course......doubt some of them do!). What's perhaps the most worrying about some elements of the Celtic support is the utter venom towards ICT, it's fans and particularly Meekings. The fact their club is bowing down to them is even worse. You could come up with events until you're blue in the face of decisions that didn't go your team's way. ICT probably should've had a penalty in the League Cup Final last year towards the end of the game, but never got it (same referee that day by the way). No letter for clarification, disappointment at the result but we all got over it.

I saw a discussion on Twitter between some ICT and Celtic fans the other day (one of which was with 'The Huddleboard', which seems to be run by someone with an IQ somewhere around room temperature), where the final was being trashed as meaningless, hollow and all sorts. No-one really knows what would've happened had the handball been given. The penalty could've been booted over the crossbar! Even then, who's to say even at two down and with ten men that ICT wouldn't have come back and won? We've come back from two down against Celtic before (one of which playing with ten men for a good chunk of the game) and we played so well with a fair amount of the game left that coming back to 2-2 was obviously not guaranteed, but certainly nowhere near impossible.

The one thing that's maybe gone unnoticed about this whole fallout though, is how the final will playout. All the momentum, most of the support of Scottish football and drive of the ICT players, can surely not be a good thing for Falkirk. While really there isn't much pressure on them to win anyway, I think the chances of ICT pulling off a victory next month, have become all the more likely.

Not Celtic fans, no.

[bunglebonce]

Sorry I never knew you laid down the criteria.

Surely a goal scored through deliberate cheating is equally accountable as a goal denied through deliberate cheating?

Why does the criteria laid down by you differentiate between the two?

If you're meaning "cheating" as in scoring with a handball, like Chris Iwelumo against Ross County last season, then it should be clear:-

Unsporting behavior is a cautionable offence; denying a goal or goal scoring opportunity is a red card offence. Unsporting behaviour isn't something that the Compliance Officer deals with.

To quote the criteria from the last page:-

Handball should always be dealt with retrospectively, IF:

1. It denied the opposing team or an opponent a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity; AND
2. The referee and his assistants didn't see it.

But that's a pretty high threshold to meet. Meekings's handball meets it. There aren't many handballs that do.

[craigkillie]

There have been cases of goals being scored after the ball having struck a hand. Surely that is no different to the case here?

Apart from the fact that the Meekings one is a red card offence, while the ones you're talking about aren't.

[RussellAnderson]

Apart from the fact that the Meekings one is a red card offence, while the ones you're talking about aren't.

Is deliberate hand ball not a red? like if a keeper picks the ball up outside the box or if a player scores with a hand ala Maradona? I always thought it was.

[AberdeenBud]

Yellow for unsporting, no?

[ICTJohnboy]

Apart from the fact that the Meekings one is a red card offence, while the ones you're talking about aren't.

Only if, in the referee's opinion, Meeking's handball was deemed to be deliberate.

We seem to have this debate about every 6 weeks.

[sergie's no1 fan]

Is deliberate hand ball not a red? like if a keeper picks the ball up outside the box or if a player scores with a hand ala Maradona? I always thought it was.

Depends if it is denying a goal scoring opportunity .

De Gea got away with one against Liverpool a couple of weeks ago iirc, or was it against Chelsea last week?

[stonedsailor]

If you're meaning "cheating" as in scoring with a handball, like Chris Iwelumo against Ross County last season, then it should be clear:-

Unsporting behavior is a cautionable offence; denying a goal or goal scoring opportunity is a red card offence. Unsporting behaviour isn't something that the Compliance Officer deals with.

To quote the criteria from the last page:-

Handball should always be dealt with retrospectively, IF:

• It denied the opposing team or an opponent a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity; AND
• The referee and his assistants didn't see it.

But that's a pretty high threshold to meet. Meekings's handball meets it. There aren't many handballs that do.

FIFAs view....

Even in the case of a clearly deliberate handball - Thierry Henry v. Ireland in 2010 - FIFA's disciplinary committee reached the conclusion that there was "...no legal foundation for the committee to consider the case because handling the ball cannot be regarded as a serious infringement as stipulated in article 77a) of the FIFA disciplinary code."

[stonedsailor]

Is deliberate hand ball not a red? like if a keeper picks the ball up outside the box or if a player scores with a hand ala Maradona? I always thought it was.

Handball is only a foul if it is deliberate. By your logic all handball would be a red card.

[AberdeenBud]

FIFAs view....

Even in the case of a clearly deliberate handball - Thierry Henry v. Ireland in 2010 - FIFA's disciplinary committee reached the conclusion that there was "...no legal foundation for the committee to consider the case because handling the ball cannot be regarded as a serious infringement as stipulated in article 77a) of the FIFA disciplinary code."

But denying a goalscoring opportunity is, that's BB's point. I think.

[stonedsailor]

But denying a goalscoring opportunity is, that's BB's point. I think.

BB just wants as many ICT players as possible banned from the final because when Ross C*unty had their shot at it not one of their players turned up.

[alimci]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/22/uk-soccer-scotland-inverness-idUKKBN0ND1FP20150422

Nice. If FIFA are against it, can they do anything about it, or can they not interfere at domestic level?

[7-2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32409694

But Lunny believes they face a tough task to clear Meekings to play in the showpiece final against Falkirk at the end of May.

He said: "I think it will be an uphill struggle, especially after (Inverness manager) John Hughes's comments on the radio earlier this week saying that it was a sending-off matter.

This is the same Vincent Lunny, Compliance Officer, that cleared Gary O'Connor of the most blatant dive ever to win a penalty against Saints after Hibs manager Pat Fenlon had said in the media that O'Connor had dived.

You really couldn't make up most of the stuff up that Hampden's spouted.

[stonedsailor]

Nice. If FIFA are against it, can they do anything about it, or can they not interfere at domestic level?

The SFA can act within their rules but this is obviously a case which FIFA see as having been dealt with on the park and do not want this or future similar cases dealt with after the fact.

The question should be how much are the SFA willing to piss off FIFA just to keep Celtic on side?

Also reading the article it reads as though FIFA are telling the SFA that the problem does not lie with the player but the standard of official.

[bunglebonce]

FIFAs view....

Even in the case of a clearly deliberate handball - Thierry Henry v. Ireland in 2010 - FIFA's disciplinary committee reached the conclusion that there was "...no legal foundation for the committee to consider the case because handling the ball cannot be regarded as a serious infringement as stipulated in article 77a) of the FIFA disciplinary code."

That isn't relevant to Meekings.

a) As AberdeenBud says, Henry wasn't denying a goalscoring opportunity;

b) The FIFA Disciplinary Committee oversees international matches, with their own set of rules. The SFA oversee Scottish Cup matches, with their own set of rules.

BB just wants as many ICT players as possible banned from the final because when Ross C*unty had their shot at it not one of their players turned up.

I'm just debunking your attempts to clutch at straws.

[Elixir]

Regan et al must go.

[HibeeJibee]

Regarding the interviews with Lunny - did he clarify why, during his howevermany years in post, he didn't issue a single such citation?

There are really 2 aspects to the controversy:

(1) whether or not such incidents should be cited, being different to dives/violent conduct/etc.

(2) if the answer is 'yes they should', why none has been cited until now

EDIT: Infact it seems FIFA think the answer to (1) is 'no they should not'.

[stonedsailor]

That isn't relevant to Meekings.

a) As AberdeenBud says, Henry wasn't denying a goalscoring opportunity;

b) The FIFA Disciplinary Committee oversees international matches, with their own set of rules. The SFA oversee Scottish Cup matches, with their own set of rules.

I'm just debunking your attempts to clutch at straws.

Clutching straws? My first post-match post stated that we scrapped fought and cheated our way to the final.

I have no issue if Meekings is banned but clearly the sport's governing body has no want for issues like this to be dealt with off the park when the final whistle is blown.

Our team, those cleared to play the match, will turn up and play. Unlike the C*unty finalists who were nowhere to be seen when they had their chance.

I understand why this bothers you, I really do.

[bunglebonce]

FWIW I can see where Jim Boyce is coming from with this statement in the Reuters article:-

It is a totally different matter if someone has gone over the top, or committed a serious foul, or head-butted someone and the referee has missed it.

Those are disciplinary issues. But what happened here is that the referee has made a mistake regarding a handball and that's the end of it. There is no way the player should now be disciplined for that.

But the SFA aren't making things up as they go along, despite many thinking that they are. The member clubs agreed to the current framework and the Compliance Officer is doing his job properly.

I don't agree that it creates a dangerous precedent. This only happens within strict criteria and I can only assume Boyce isn't aware of that.

Should the rule be reformed for the future? Probably. Does it help Meekings now? Not if the panel stick to their jobs.

[stonedsailor]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/fifa-chief-wades-handballgate-insists-5564492