When will indyref2 happen?

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, Daydream said:

Why’s it unsurprising that English education is better?

The substantive part of my post was, " there is very little difference in Scotland compared to England. all round.  This is unsurprising as we've, largely, the same culture and have shared sovereignty for close to half a millennium."

I shouldn't have nested my point about Scottish education in the same sentence as it was a distraction that you rightly picked up on.   It was still a fair point, though, and, "If you choose wisely, English education is vastly superior to that in Jockland".

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, Crùbag said:

Given our limited powers we've done well on some things like knife crime, alcohol abuse and the NHS here. Crime rates fallen too. We're outperforming the rUK on most things. Education too is pretty good here. My union rep - a Yorkshireman - describes the English system as 'the wild west' and English colleagues up here say things are better.

There are three (at least) aspects to education in Scotland that are worrying:

1. The Natters have deliberately downgraded the importance of education in Scotland to the extent that they have withdrawn participation in international valuations.  The cynic in me says that this is deliberate. Produce stupid weans so you get stupid voters.

2. There is absolutely no way out of the post-code lottery when it comes to Scottish schools.  If you're lucky enough to have a hoose in Jordahill or Bearsden then your weans are on the money.  Given Scot Gov's 'one size fits all' policy then you are fucked as there is no option for brighter weans in less prosperous areas.

3. Scot Gov's 'Jim Crow' law on education really should be an international joke.  Imagine a progressive, civic-minded, independent country which encourages folk of one ethno-religious background in to a parallel education system.  What a blight on civic Scotland.

[Thane of Cawdor]

17 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

There are three (at least) aspects to education in Scotland that are worrying:

1. The Natters have deliberately downgraded the importance of education in Scotland to the extent that they have withdrawn participation in international valuations.  The cynic in me says that this is deliberate. Produce stupid weans so you get stupid voters.

I think you are being willfully provocative on this point and don't see much evidence to support it. The moronic tranche in the independence debate is entirely in the unionist camp.

2. There is absolutely no way out of the post-code lottery when it comes to Scottish schools.  If you're lucky enough to have a hoose in Jordahill or Bearsden then your weans are on the money.  Given Scot Gov's 'one size fits all' policy then you are fucked as there is no option for brighter weans in less prosperous areas.

Why don't you just say, bring back the grammar schools? I have a certain degree of sympathy with this argument.

3. Scot Gov's 'Jim Crow' law on education really should be an international joke.  Imagine a progressive, civic-minded, independent country which encourages folk of one ethno-religious background in to a parallel education system.  What a blight on civic Scotland.

Why don't you just say, make all education integrated. I have a certain degree of sympathy with this argument.

 

[The_Kincardine]

37 minutes ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

 

Since you're unable to use the quote function I will help you.

I said:  The Natters have deliberately downgraded the importance of education in Scotland to the extent that they have withdrawn participation in international valuations.  The cynic in me says that this is deliberate. Produce stupid weans so you get stupid voters.

You said: I think you are being willfully provocative on this point and don't see much evidence to support it. The moronic tranche in the independence debate is entirely in the unionist camp.

On this bit of the thread my substantive claim was prosaically simple:  "Had Scotland genuinely achieved societal change in its 20+ years of devolution then the case for independence would be compelling."

I don't see anyone disagreeing with this.

Now I know that education in Scotland has always been within our own remit but you'd have expected a newly-confident devolved government to address the shortcomings in Scottish education and deal with the two aspect that we both agree on:  Apartheid education and the one-size fits all post-code lottery which gives no opportunity for upward mobility.

What nearly a generation of devolution has produced instead?  A shower of ill-educated, hate-fueled grievance junkies.

[DrewDon]

How many faith schools are there in England compared to Scotland, out of interest? 

[Thane of Cawdor]

5 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Since you're unable to use the quote function I will help you.

I said:  The Natters have deliberately downgraded the importance of education in Scotland to the extent that they have withdrawn participation in international valuations.  The cynic in me says that this is deliberate. Produce stupid weans so you get stupid voters.

You said: I think you are being willfully provocative on this point and don't see much evidence to support it. The moronic tranche in the independence debate is entirely in the unionist camp.

On this bit of the thread my substantive claim was prosaically simple:  "Had Scotland genuinely achieved societal change in its 20+ years of devolution then the case for independence would be compelling."

I don't see anyone disagreeing with this.

Now I know that education in Scotland has always been within our own remit but you'd have expected a newly-confident devolved government to address the shortcomings in Scottish education and deal with the two aspect that we both agree on:  Apartheid education and the one-size fits all post-code lottery which gives no opportunity for upward mobility.

What nearly a generation of devolution has produced instead?  A shower of ill-educated, hate-fueled grievance junkies.

That's not how Fuelled is spelt smart-arse!

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

That's not how Fuelled is spelt smart-arse!

That will make up for you being unable to quoted properly.  

[The_Kincardine]

11 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

How many faith schools are there in England compared to Scotland, out of interest? 

I don't think it matters.  Scotland's education is organised in such a way as to legally separate (mostly) Irish Catholics from the rest of society and ScotGov invests hundreds of millions each year to support a parallel education system.  What a rid neck for civic Scotland.

I have said twice now that,  "Had Scotland genuinely achieved societal change in its 20+ years of devolution then the case for independence would be compelling." and none of the empty-headed Natters have picked up up this.  I don't see that changing.

[Thane of Cawdor]

Not classically educated, but think you may be misusing the gerund. What did you think of the future king attending a non-Russell group university? Anyway, I'm new to this stuff, but you, presumably, have been mis-spelling words your entire "educated" life.

[The_Kincardine]

5 minutes ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

What did you think of the future king attending a non-Russell group university?

I have no interest in Monarchy as a system of government.  as for Russell Group Unis?  My 21 yo is at Sheffield, my son will go to Manchester and my wee yin got an unconditional offer for Bath last month.  All good Unis.

The thing that I remind them of is that I went to King's College in London in the early 80s when it was pretty shite at Theology (my degree) and let pretty-much anyone in who applied as my Highers may not have been good enough for either Edinburgh or Glasgow.

Universities change.

Edited March 3, 2020 by The_Kincardine

[Thane of Cawdor]

1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said:

I have no interest in Monarchy as a system of government.

I salute your free-thinking spirit. Fellow bears might see you as a renegade. Fair play to you.

[DrewDon]

7 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I don't think it matters.  Scotland's education is organised in such a way as to legally separate (mostly) Irish Catholics from the rest of society and ScotGov invests hundreds of millions each year to support a parallel education system.  What a rid neck for civic Scotland.

I have said twice now that,  "Had Scotland genuinely achieved societal change in its 20+ years of devolution then the case for independence would be compelling." and none of the empty-headed Natters have picked up up this.  I don't see that changing.

Do you feel that Church of England schools 'separate' their students from the rest of society?

[The_Kincardine]

11 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

Do you feel that Church of England schools 'separate' their students from the rest of society?

Of course they do.  My three went to C of E primaries and were the better for it.  The alternatives were a council school for the schemies and a Catholic fee-paying school.  You know the answer to that.

Not the point though.  That England doesn't enshrine in law the separation of (mostly) Irish Catholics from the rest of society.  Jim Crow Scotland does.

To mitigate myself, the best non-grammar school in south Bucks is Waddesdon School and, as a confirmed member of the C of E, I refused to join a local church as a back-stop in case my weans didn't get in to a local grammar - much to my ex-wife's chagrin.

Edited March 3, 2020 by The_Kincardine

[DrewDon]

1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said:

Of course they do.  My three went to C of E primaries and were the better for it.  The alternatives were a council school for the schemies and a Catholic fee-paying school.  You know the answer to that.

Not the point though.  That England doesn't enshrine in law the separation of (mostly) Irish Catholics from the rest of society.  Jim Crow Scotland does.

I think it is a matter of priorities. I don't particularly like faith schools, whatever creed they may be, but there are significantly bigger and more pressing issues facing the Scottish education system (which, frankly, no governments at Holyrood - most certainly including the SNP ones - have done enough to effectively tackle). 

[The_Kincardine]

1 hour ago, DrewDon said:

I think it is a matter of priorities. I don't particularly like faith schools, whatever creed they may be, but there are significantly bigger and more pressing issues facing the Scottish education system (which, frankly, no governments at Holyrood - most certainly including the SNP ones - have done enough to effectively tackle). 

I accept that the faith school issue is a cheap win for we protestant Unionists but still needs to be addressed in or out of the union.

My general point, that  "Had Scotland genuinely achieved societal change in its 20+ years of devolution then the case for independence would be compelling." does seem to be ignored.

Why hasn't devolved Scotland made pretty-much any difference compared to England and what does that say about the prospects for an independent Scotland?

Edited March 3, 2020 by The_Kincardine

[The Moonster]

 

11 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

There are three (at least) aspects to education in Scotland that are worrying:

1. The Natters have deliberately downgraded the importance of education in Scotland to the extent that they have withdrawn participation in international valuations.  The cynic in me says that this is deliberate. Produce stupid weans so you get stupid voters.

Here was me thinking you were a moron all along but you're actually a tin-foil hat wearing moron. Lovely.

[John Lambies Doos]

Coronovirus will probably speed up independence

[The_Kincardine]

On 03/03/2020 at 07:14, MixuFixit said:

As has been proven, and I'm not saying this to insinuate their votes are less valid, had the people who were brought up in England who were living in Scotland not voted, it would have been an emphatic yes vote.

That's yer Natterism writ large - it's the English.

As for education?  We all know that the SNP government has failed secondary education in Scotland.  My take is that it's deliberate but, if not, then it's incompetence.  Either way, it's a blight on the country.

[Baxter Parp]

That's yer Natterism writ large - it's the English.
As for education?  We all know that the SNP government has failed secondary education in Scotland.  My take is that it's deliberate but, if not, then it's incompetence.  Either way, it's a blight on the country.

Natterism writ large - actual proven facts.

Kincardine writ large - speculative pish based on Tory party press releases.

[The_Kincardine]

14 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Natterism writ large - actual proven facts.

Did 'the English' vote make all the difference in 2014?  Absolutely and thank f**k for it.

Do the empty-headed Natters still resent it?  Quite clearly.

But still it's all about 'civic nationalism' eh?