When will indyref2 happen?

[DAFC.]

Who is going to provide serious analysis and evaluation from the Unionist side about an independent Scotland? The uber Unionists aren’t giving actual evidence to support what they are saying. They are just doing a lot of shouting and flag-waving.

Of course the SNP should be candid on currency as it is a pretty big deal, but this whole “can’t do it because things” attitude from the Unionists isn’t going to wash any more.

The SNP have to jump on that and provide a well thought out strategy instead of “we’ll just use the pound as it’s our pound as well”

I’d still have Yes as underdogs regardless of polling figures. There’s always that shitebag mentality, the constant media scare stories and older people being more likely to vote which will all play in their favour. Technology and sources for info has moved on dramatically since the last IndyRef, so you’d like to think older people will have access to more outlets than just BBC News and the Daily Record. I haven’t actually seen someone possess a physical newspaper in quite some time, unless it’s to use a Metro to cover their hair running for a train in the pissing rain.

[SANTAN]

9 hours ago, DAFC. said:

Who is going to provide serious analysis and evaluation from the Unionist side about an independent Scotland? The uber Unionists aren’t giving actual evidence to support what they are saying. They are just doing a lot of shouting and flag-waving.

Of course the SNP should be candid on currency as it is a pretty big deal, but this whole “can’t do it because things” attitude from the Unionists isn’t going to wash any more.

The SNP have to jump on that and provide a well thought out strategy instead of “we’ll just use the pound as it’s our pound as well”

I’d still have Yes as underdogs regardless of polling figures. There’s always that shitebag mentality, the constant media scare stories and older people being more likely to vote which will all play in their favour. Technology and sources for info has moved on dramatically since the last IndyRef, so you’d like to think older people will have access to more outlets than just BBC News and the Daily Record. I haven’t actually seen someone possess a physical newspaper in quite some time, unless it’s to use a Metro to cover their hair running for a train in the pissing rain.
 

Very sensible post. The onus is certainly on the Leave side to go into detail which I've been stressing but people just wanna talk about polls. 

[jamamafegan]

Very sensible post. The onus is certainly on the Leave side to go into detail which I've been stressing but people just wanna talk about polls. 

Well then, what are your concerns about independence? What kind of details do you want? Tell us.

[SANTAN]

10 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

 

Well then, what are your concerns about independence? What kind of details do you want? Tell us.

 

Well I don't want it to begin with, I'm content and I'm yet to be convinced that Independence is better than what we have now, so making some positive cases might be a good start.. 

A few questions I'd be intrigued about;

- Would an IS attempt to rejoin the EU?

- What currency would an IS use?

-What would happen re the national debt?

- Would we have a hard border with England?

- What would our defence situation be, would it involve cozying up to Russia (I doubt this) or would we effectively just lease out and pay the UK/US for services?

- Identity - What is the identity of an Independent Scotland, what would people like to change from a social perspective? I certainly identify as British and in an IS what actual social differences would there be? Would there actually be enough to bother changing all of the above contentious issues for the sake of some people feeling more Scottish (whatever that means)

- Lastly, the Scottish media, what would we be left with. Shite TV, Shite music. All Scottish media has is Limmy. If the BBC would make me pay to subscribe in this situation I'd be oh so resentful. 

[SANTAN]

Great points well made Tutankhamen and monthefife - you've convinced me. 

[Tutankhamen]

8 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Great points well made Tutankhamen and monthefife - you've convinced me. 

More chance of convincing the rioters that Friday night in George Square.

[jamamafegan]

Well I don't want it to begin with, I'm content and I'm yet to be convinced that Independence is better than what we have now, so making some positive cases might be a good start.. 

A few questions I'd be intrigued about;
- Would an IS attempt to rejoin the EU?

Almost definitely.

- What currency would an IS use?

Probably look to use our own.

SNP’s stance 2019 (unsure if changed since): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47414870

-What would happen re the national debt?

No idea tbh. The UK is already in massive debt anyway and they’ll never pay it off: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53104734

- Would we have a hard border with England?

Not sure, depends on the EU situation maybe. What’s the big deal if we do anyway?

- What would our defence situation be, would it involve cozying up to Russia (I doubt this) or would we effectively just lease out and pay the UK/US for services?

Do you not think we could have our own military service in an independent Scotland?

- Identity - What is the identity of an Independent Scotland, what would people like to change from a social perspective? I certainly identify as British and in an IS what actual social differences would there be? Would there actually be enough to bother changing all of the above contentious issues for the sake of some people feeling more Scottish (whatever that means)

The independence movement is far more than an identity issue. In fact, I’d say it’s not an identity issue at all. I identify as Scottish now and would continue to do so after independence. You can identify as British as well if you so wish, nobody is stopping you.

- Lastly, the Scottish media, what would we be left with. Shite TV, Shite music. All Scottish media has is Limmy. If the BBC would make me pay to subscribe in this situation I'd be oh so resentful. 

Your attitude towards Scottish media stinks. I’m sure you’ll still be able to watch Eastenders or other non Scottish BBC stuff on the iplayer if you really want to.

[The Moonster]

49 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Well I don't want it to begin with, I'm content and I'm yet to be convinced that Independence is better than what we have now, so making some positive cases might be a good start.. 

A few questions I'd be intrigued about;

- Would an IS attempt to rejoin the EU?

- What currency would an IS use?

-What would happen re the national debt?

- Would we have a hard border with England?

- What would our defence situation be, would it involve cozying up to Russia (I doubt this) or would we effectively just lease out and pay the UK/US for services?

- Identity - What is the identity of an Independent Scotland, what would people like to change from a social perspective? I certainly identify as British and in an IS what actual social differences would there be? Would there actually be enough to bother changing all of the above contentious issues for the sake of some people feeling more Scottish (whatever that means)

- Lastly, the Scottish media, what would we be left with. Shite TV, Shite music. All Scottish media has is Limmy. If the BBC would make me pay to subscribe in this situation I'd be oh so resentful. 

Pretty much all of those questions would be for the people of an Independent Scotland to decide. If we were to hold a referendum and vote for independence, the SNP don't just turn the country into a dictatorship - we'd have elections and you'd be free to vote for the party which most suits your needs. How can you expect the average independence supporter to guarantee you answers to questions that will be argued out in a general election?

The national debt would obviously be a matter for negotiation with the rUK government, again, why would you expect the average independence supporter to know how this would turn out? Also, in the UK the national debt is well into the trillions after doubling under the Tories stewardship, so I find it fucking hilarious that unionists bring that up as a reason to stay in the union. 

The question is - do you want Scotland to govern itself or continue in a union with 3 other countries? That's it. The fact you look for more cast iron assurances about what an independent Scotland would look like is laughable.

 

[SANTAN]

5 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

 

A few questions I'd be intrigued about;
- Would an IS attempt to rejoin the EU?

Almost definitely.

- What currency would an IS use?

Probably look to use our own.

SNP’s stance 2019 (unsure if changed since): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47414870

-What would happen re the national debt?

No idea tbh. The UK is already in massive debt anyway and they’ll never pay it off: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53104734

- Would we have a hard border with England?

Not sure, depends on the EU situation maybe. What’s the big deal if we do anyway?

- What would our defence situation be, would it involve cozying up to Russia (I doubt this) or would we effectively just lease out and pay the UK/US for services?

Do you not think we could have our own military service in an independent Scotland?

- Identity - What is the identity of an Independent Scotland, what would people like to change from a social perspective? I certainly identify as British and in an IS what actual social differences would there be? Would there actually be enough to bother changing all of the above contentious issues for the sake of some people feeling more Scottish (whatever that means)

The independence movement is far more than an identity issue. In fact, I’d say it’s not an identity issue at all. I identify as Scottish now and would continue to do so after independence. You can identify as British as well if you so wish, nobody is stopping you.

- Lastly, the Scottish media, what would we be left with. Shite TV, Shite music. All Scottish media has is Limmy. If the BBC would make me pay to subscribe in this situation I'd be oh so resentful. 

Your attitude towards Scottish media stinks. I’m sure you’ll still be able to watch Eastenders or other non Scottish BBC stuff on the iplayer if you really want to.

 

A lot of unsures and probablys. I cant say you've constructively answered any of my concerns. 

I wanted Brexit so I cant see why Scotland attempting to join the EU would be worthwhile.. 

The currency, debt and border are huge issues that need clarity. 

The military point isn't about having an army it's about what the foreign policy would be, would it be fully independent from what we have now or would it just realign with what we're at now, very big issue when SNP mps tend to be very anti nuclear and anti foreign intervention (or at least a lot of the supporters are).

Considering you have zero practical answers to any of my points I'd say it's safe to say it is some sort of identity crisis for a lot of you guys. 

What do you watch on Scottish Media? I dont watch Eastenders....

 

[SANTAN]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Pretty much all of those questions would be for the people of an Independent Scotland to decide. If we were to hold a referendum and vote for independence, the SNP don't just turn the country into a dictatorship - we'd have elections and you'd be free to vote for the party which most suits your needs. How can you expect the average independence supporter to guarantee you answers to questions that will be argued out in a general election?

The national debt would obviously be a matter for negotiation with the rUK government, again, why would you expect the average independence supporter to know how this would turn out? Also, in the UK the national debt is well into the trillions after doubling under the Tories stewardship, so I find it fucking hilarious that unionists bring that up as a reason to stay in the union. 

The question is - do you want Scotland to govern itself or continue in a union with 3 other countries? That's it. The fact you look for more cast iron assurances about what an independent Scotland would look like is laughable.

 

If all of those questions would be answered after then what would I actually be voting for exactly..? 

I dont expect the average voter to have answers but I was asked my reasoning and I've stated I am content with the status quo so my questions are what would concern me to the point i would need to be convinced on them to vote for SI. As in I'm showing how the onus is certainly on the Indy supporters to sell a vision. 

The issue with the national debt isn't the fact that the UK has debt, if people think that then I'm not in that camp.

It's laughable that people have questions over Independence.. ahahahaha - jesus christ - ahahahahaha- oh wow. 

I'm content, why do you want Scottish Independence? 

 

[Blootoon87]

Did you ask for clarity on every issue before Brexit, or was the big bus and getting rid of foreigners enough?

[SANTAN]

Just now, Blootoon87 said:

Did you ask for clarity on every issue before Brexit, or was the big bus and getting rid of foreigners enough?

What a ridiculous post. You guys are so stuck in your little boxes. Cool assumption though, I'll presume you think all Independence supporters hate the English?

[SandyCromarty]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Pretty much all of those questions would be for the people of an Independent Scotland to decide. If we were to hold a referendum and vote for independence, the SNP don't just turn the country into a dictatorship - we'd have elections and you'd be free to vote for the party which most suits your needs. How can you expect the average independence supporter to guarantee you answers to questions that will be argued out in a general election?

The national debt would obviously be a matter for negotiation with the rUK government, again, why would you expect the average independence supporter to know how this would turn out? Also, in the UK the national debt is well into the trillions after doubling under the Tories stewardship, so I find it fucking hilarious that unionists bring that up as a reason to stay in the union. 

The question is - do you want Scotland to govern itself or continue in a union with 3 other countries? That's it. The fact you look for more cast iron assurances about what an independent Scotland would look like is laughable.

 

I agreed with all of your sentiments until you mentioned '3 other countries'.

I have been banging on about all political leaders, including Nicola, referring to four nations within the UK framework, as far as I am aware Northern Ireland is regarded as a Province and never a 'nation', Wales can be described as a country but my doubt lies where Wales shares the english law system.

I have no disregard in any way for Wales and NI but what I do take umbrage with is that Scotland is being shown to be against the wishes of the NI and Welsh people by wanting Independence from them when in fact our cause is aimed at england who along with Scotland were the only signatories on the1706 Treaty of Union

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

If all of those questions would be answered after then what would I actually be voting for exactly..? 

I dont expect the average voter to have answers but I was asked my reasoning and I've stated I am content with the status quo so my questions are what would concern me to the point i would need to be convinced on them to vote for SI. As in I'm showing how the onus is certainly on the Indy supporters to sell a vision. 

The issue with the national debt isn't the fact that the UK has debt, if people think that then I'm not in that camp.

It's laughable that people have questions over Independence.. ahahahaha - jesus christ - ahahahahaha- oh wow. 

I'm content, why do you want Scottish Independence? 

 

As I said in my post, you are voting for Scotland to govern itself or not. Not sure why that's difficult to grasp.

Right, but every indy supporter might have a slightly different vision, so asking that question on a football forum might generate you 100 different visions. If you end up liking one of those visions, would you vote for SI?

What's the problem with debt then if it's not the fact that Scotland would need to take a share of it?

You're twisting what I've said, and you're faux hilarious reaction does nothing for your case. You want assurances that can't be given because you have no intention of being convinced about independence. You throw up these barriers and say "See? No vision" and feel you've dismantled the case. It's laughable.

I'm glad you're content with what we have, I won't ever understand that but each to their own. I want Scotland to govern itself and receive the government it votes for at every election. I feel the Scottish Parliament is a far better functioning and modern parliament than Westminster and the electoral system we use gives a fairer representation of peoples votes. I feel under that Parliament that we'd be able to build a fairer and more equal society, hopefully one without abhorrent Tory gammons. I could not give a f**k what bits of paper I need to use to buy milk. 

[Stellaboz]

Not sure why we'd be under any obligation to take on any debt that the UK has racked up. 

[Blootoon87]

What a ridiculous post. You guys are so stuck in your little boxes. Cool assumption though, I'll presume you think all Independence supporters hate the English?

Certainly not, I'm only asking why you need every detail laid out before Scottish independence but were happy enough to vote for Brexit that had literally no plan apart from "Take back control" and other nonsense soundbites.

[SandyCromarty]

An interview with Nicola printed in today's issue of Germany's Die Welt where she states that Boris's present day Brexit trade talks are reckless and that Scotland would  apply for EU membership immediately on gaining Independence.

 

[SANTAN]

1 minute ago, Stellaboz said:

Not sure why we'd be under any obligation to take on any debt that the UK has racked up. 

And there's why I mentioned it.. Already we have two different takes. 

[SANTAN]

1 minute ago, Blootoon87 said:

7 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

What a ridiculous post. You guys are so stuck in your little boxes. Cool assumption though, I'll presume you think all Independence supporters hate the English?

Certainly not, I'm only asking why you need every detail laid out before Scottish independence but were happy enough to vote for Brexit that had literally no plan apart from "Take back control" and other nonsense soundbites.

You asked with a lot of nasty assumptions. I didnt vote for Brexit either way.. 

[Dan Steele]

1 hour ago, Stormzy said:

Lastly, the Scottish media, what would we be left with. Shite TV, Shite music

The media is, of course, more than just TV. There's already a thriving advertising industry, Scotland is a great draw for film companies, newspapers would still exist but with a Scottish outlook, Scottish cinema does exist, and I'm sure an independent Scotland would be able to offer financial incentives for more inward investment. There are enough highly trained technicians to have an independent Scottish TV and radio operation free from the London-centric BBC.

Would you not, as a centrist thinker who currently feels ok with the status quo, not admit even grudgingly, that an independent Scotland could confront the problems that would arise and manage to come up with something better than what's unfolding via Westminster at the moment?