When will indyref2 happen?

[Blootoon87]

You asked with a lot of nasty assumptions. I didnt vote for Brexit either way.. 

I'll ask politely then. Can you please explain why you were "for " Brexit without any plan of any sort?

[SANTAN]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

As I said in my post, you are voting for Scotland to govern itself or not. Not sure why that's difficult to grasp.

Right, but every indy supporter might have a slightly different vision, so asking that question on a football forum might generate you 100 different visions. If you end up liking one of those visions, would you vote for SI?

What's the problem with debt then if it's not the fact that Scotland would need to take a share of it?

You're twisting what I've said, and you're faux hilarious reaction does nothing for your case. You want assurances that can't be given because you have no intention of being convinced about independence. You throw up these barriers and say "See? No vision" and feel you've dismantled the case. It's laughable.

I'm glad you're content with what we have, I won't ever understand that but each to their own. I want Scotland to govern itself and receive the government it votes for at every election. I feel the Scottish Parliament is a far better functioning and modern parliament than Westminster and the electoral system we use gives a fairer representation of peoples votes. I feel under that Parliament that we'd be able to build a fairer and more equal society, hopefully one without abhorrent Tory gammons. I could not give a f**k what bits of paper I need to use to buy milk. 

You can simplify it down all you want, doesn't stop the fact that people have questions like I've posed and would hope to have certain assurances and answers to fill us with confidence. 

You keep assuming that I've a cemented opinion and haven't really tackled any of the points that I've said could convince me so what does it matter.. they're not barriers they're sincere points that I would need clarity over before voting for such things. 

I appreciate your reasoning for why you want Independence though. 

 

[SANTAN]

3 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

The media is, of course, more than just TV. There's already a thriving advertising industry, Scotland is a great draw for film companies, newspapers would still exist but with a Scottish outlook, Scottish cinema does exist, and I'm sure an independent Scotland would be able to offer financial incentives for more inward investment. There are enough highly trained technicians to have an independent Scottish TV and radio operation free from the London-centric BBC.

Would you not, as a centrist thinker who currently feels ok with the status quo, not admit even grudgingly, that an independent Scotland could confront the problems that would arise and manage to come up with something better than what's unfolding via Westminster at the moment?

Agree with the first part, it was obviously the least important of all my points, was just saying culturally I prefer music and tv from the other parts of the UK. 

Yeah with a lot of ifs and buts, it could. But lots of things could happen, the risk reward currently isn't something I support. Of course if the majority of people did support it I'm not going to be trying to rerun any referendums, unlike some. 

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Stormzy said:

You keep assuming that I've a cemented opinion and haven't really tackled any of the points that I've said could convince me so what does it matter.. they're not barriers they're sincere points that I would need clarity over before voting for such things. 

But you aren't voting for those things just now (or whenever a referendum happened). The questions you have would be put the the parties fighting it out for power in an independent Scotland. I'm not simplifying it down, I'm stating fact.

Serious question - do you believe that Scotland is incapable of managing all of the points you put forward in a satisfactory manner if it were independent? 

 

[SANTAN]

4 minutes ago, Blootoon87 said:

8 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

You asked with a lot of nasty assumptions. I didnt vote for Brexit either way.. 

I'll ask politely then. Can you please explain why you were "for " Brexit without any plan of any sort?

Well all of the concerns I have with Scottish Independence weren't an issue with Brexit. If you can go back and tell me what ones relate I'll gladly answer but as it stood I didnt have any questions over currency or defence or media etc, all of those already existed without the EU, all if this would need to be built up in SI. 

The bus that you mentioned was nonsense to begin with and I'm not anti immigration, I wanted to leave the EU from 2010 onwards, so long before the referendum was in the public eye. That's one of the issues that grates me the most with SI is that people claim Brexit is such a big factor like this wasnt a potential outcome prior to 2014... people knew Brexit was an option when they chose to vote as a UK collective, the whole debate over whether staying in the UK would keep Scotland in Europe was literally over the point Scotland would have to rejoin the EU, which was true, not whether voting No in 2014 would have secured UK in Europe for all eternity. 

[welshbairn]

It's weird how folk who find any kind of economic uncertainty regarding an independent Scotland the clincher for a No vote, are so blasé about Brexit.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Stormzy said:

Brexit is such a big factor like this wasnt a potential outcome prior to 2014... people knew Brexit was an option when they chose to vote as a UK collective, the whole debate over whether staying in the UK would keep Scotland in Europe was literally over the point Scotland would have to rejoin the EU, which was true, not whether voting No in 2014 would have secured UK in Europe for all eternity. 

You're just being disingenuous now tbh.

[SANTAN]

5 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

But you aren't voting for those things just now (or whenever a referendum happened). The questions you have would be put the the parties fighting it out for power in an independent Scotland. I'm not simplifying it down, I'm stating fact.

Serious question - do you believe that Scotland is incapable of managing all of the points you put forward in a satisfactory manner if it were independent? 

 

Yeah I'm not voting on the detail I'm voting with being content with the status quo or having to do all the things I said from scratch, so the ideological view about SI is not enough to convince me that it is worth abandoning the status quo, the practical work that would have to be done and debated over for decades doesn't seem to warrant the rest to me. What can I say, I'm just clearly not as dissatisfied as everyone else on here seems to be. 

I think it could manage all the points I've made but the risk reward is no where near worth it imo, I don't think it would be likely and I'm sure I'd be left unsatisfied over most of those points. 

[SANTAN]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

You're just being disingenuous now tbh.

Voting Yes would have led to Scotland leaving the EU and having to rejoin.

Voting No meant the UK remained until it later chose to leave. 

[The Moonster]

Just now, Stormzy said:

Yeah I'm not voting on the detail I'm voting with being content with the status quo or having to do all the things I said from scratch, so the ideological view about SI is not enough to convince me that it is worth abandoning the status quo, the practical work that would have to be done and debated over for decades doesn't seem to warrant the rest to me. What can I say, I'm just clearly not as dissatisfied as everyone else on here seems to be. 

I think it could manage all the points I've made but the risk reward is no where near worth it imo, I don't think it would be likely and I'm sure I'd be left unsatisfied over most of those points. 

So when you said you hadn't cemented your view a few minutes ago you were talking complete shite?

Just now, Stormzy said:

Voting Yes would have led to Scotland leaving the EU and having to rejoin.

Voting No meant the UK remained until it later chose to leave. 

Yes, that was exactly what Better Together said to the voters in 2014. I think I'll leave you here, pal. 

[SANTAN]

Just now, The Moonster said:

So when you said you hadn't cemented your view a few minutes ago you were talking complete shite?

Yes, that was exactly what Better Together said to the voters in 2014. I think I'll leave you here, pal. 

Sorry if your comprehension standards are poor. 

I have an opinion on the likelihood of SI, I have an opinion on what I want, is all of this cemented, no. All of this could change with good reasoning, nothing I've seen so far has convinced me but there are plenty of assurances and outcomes which could..

What was wrong with what was said then, that is completely true. Do you think Scotland would have automatically rejoined the EU on day 1? 

[jamamafegan]

Well all of the concerns I have with Scottish Independence weren't an issue with Brexit. If you can go back and tell me what ones relate I'll gladly answer but as it stood I didnt have any questions over currency or defence or media etc, all of those already existed without the EU, all if this would need to be built up in SI.

You’re so intent on getting assurances on x, y and z for SI but you weren’t given any assurances whatsoever with Brexit, no plan to exit the EU and the implications that would have for the UK - yet you wanted that, and would have presumably voted for it if you had the opportunity. That’s an absolutely bizarre way of thinking but it’s you that seems to think everyone on here is a loony nat.

[oneteaminglasgow]

19 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

was just saying culturally I prefer music from the other parts of the UK. 

[SANTAN]

1 minute ago, jamamafegan said:

 

You’re so intent on getting assurances on x, y and z for SI but you weren’t given any assurances whatsoever with Brexit, no plan to exit the EU and the implications that would have for the UK - yet you wanted that, and would have presumably voted for it if you had the opportunity. That’s an absolutely bizarre way of thinking but it’s you that seems to think everyone on here is a loony nat.

 

I've literally told you what x y and z are for SI and how they aren't comparable with concerns I had over Brexit. Unless you can tell me what concerns i have ignored over Brexit then I'll gladly cover it....

I had the choice to vote and i chose to vote Remain as I wasnt convinced on certain issues.....

So everything you've said above is wrong, congratulations.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Stormzy said:

All of this could change with good reasoning,

Lol, I literally asked you if you felt Scotland was capable of doing all the things you said and you said this:

6 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

I think it could manage all the points I've made but the risk reward is no where near worth it imo, I don't think it would be likely and I'm sure I'd be left unsatisfied over most of those points. 

So if you think we can manage currency, debt, media and all those other things you're worried about, but ultimately you think you'd be left unsatisfied with the results, can you tell me what reasoning you need to hear in order to be satisfied with the results?

 

[SANTAN]

Also I dont think everyone is a loony nat at all, the majority are, click the names next to my dots and you'll see the main culprits, there are a few posters on here that I agree with and aren't complete roasters. 

[SANTAN]

Just now, The Moonster said:

Lol, I literally asked you if you felt Scotland was capable of doing all the things you said and you said this:

So if you think we can manage currency, debt, media and all those other things you're worried about, but ultimately you think you'd be left unsatisfied with the results, can you tell me what reasoning you need to hear in order to be satisfied with the results?

 

Jesus Christ, I also think man could eventually fly to Jupiter and I don't think that's happening any time soon. Here's a clue, go back to the page where I posted my concerns,  if those were alleviated then I'd be convinced, you just said all of those will come after so if that's the case then I'm not going to jump off the cliff and change the status quo. I believe all of those concerns could certainly be addressed before the vote. (If there even is one)

[The Moonster]

Just now, Stormzy said:

Jesus Christ, I also think man could eventually fly to Jupiter and I don't think that's happening any time soon. Here's a clue, go back to the page where I posted my concerns,  if those were alleviated then I'd be convinced, you just said all of those will come after so if that's the case then I'm not going to jump off the cliff and change the status quo. I believe all of those concerns could certainly be addressed before the vote. (If there even is one)

I'm really tying to make this easy for you give straight answers but you're doing your best to avoid it. I'll ask this a different way one more time a slightly different way:

In an independent Scotland we will use our own currency. Are you satisfied or dissatisfied with that?

[SANTAN]

Just now, The Moonster said:

I'm really tying to make this easy for you give straight answers but you're doing your best to avoid it. I'll ask this a different way one more time a slightly different way:

In an independent Scotland we will use our own currency. Are you satisfied or dissatisfied with that?

No I'm not, I've given you a page full of my concerns and you've basically said "aye that'll come after".. I'm not saying I couldn't be convinced I'm saying that you're not exactly convincing me here. 

 

I'd be satisfied if that was definitely the case. 

[welshbairn]

9 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

 I'm not going to jump off the cliff and change the status quo. 

 

28 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

I wanted to leave the EU from 2010 onwards, so long before the referendum was in the public eye. 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by welshbairn