When will indyref2 happen?

[BFTD]

1 minute ago, Paco said:

Is there any scope for the next Scottish Government to go a bit nuclear and change the voting system to outright FPTP?

It’d be a dreadful look, and it may be a moot point as the Greens would be needed to vote it through and they’d be voting to put themselves out of parliament.

But if a referendum is turned down due to the lack of a majority, in a system designed to prevent a majority, something has to give.

Would they need approval from Westminster for that?

Yeah, it'd be a dreadful look, and would probably accelerate Westminster efforts to dissolve Holyrood. It would also give Westminster a perfect excuse for not agreeing to...well, anything that the Scottish Government wanted, as a majority of seats would mean as much as a majority of seats at Westminster in terms of a majority of voters. And, frankly, it just strikes me as wrong to drop back to a more unfair version of democracy just to get what we want.

It would be funny to see Westminster argue against it, though.

[Aufc]

I'm one of the lucky ones, I'm on full pay and working from home. I'm saving over £50 a week on travel plus a wedge on lunches, diet cokes etc. In the couple of years before the pandemic I went to about 60 football and rugby matches a year, so between tickets, travel and food I've saved a lot on that. I'm probably saving about £500 a month all in. If I were on 80% I would still be better off than before.
We're not rolling in it because we were in a serious hole before it happened, but it has helped us to climb a long way back up.
We know how lucky we are so we've kept paying for stuff like all the kids activities even though they can't do them, and I've used donate-a-ticket to give money to Linlithgow Rose's opponents in all their away fixtures. Folk give you a pat on the back for that stuff but honestly, for those in my position it's the bare minimum and I feel guilty about not doing more.

Why should you feel guilty? You pay your taxes.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, Aufc said:

 

Why should you feel guilty? You pay your taxes.

 

Because I believe in a society in which we share the burden when the really hard times come, I believe that works best for all of us and right now I see widening inequality and worsening poverty. In a country this wealthy (fk it, in a world this wealthy), foodbanks shouldn't exist, far less become an essential service for large numbers of people. I can't kid myself on that I deserve that much more than others, I know it's mostly luck.

[Aufc]

Because I believe in a society in which we share the burden when the really hard times come, I believe that works best for all of us and right now I see widening inequality and worsening poverty. In a country this wealthy (fk it, in a world this wealthy), foodbanks shouldn't exist, far less become an essential service for large numbers of people. I can't kid myself on that I deserve that much more than others, I know it's mostly luck.

I agree. I am very lucky that i am very well paid for my job and only in my mid 30’s. I would be more than happy to pay more tax. However, i dont feel guilty for earning what i earn. I have been lucky with having a stable upbringing but then also worked hard to get where i am. Until the government tells me i need to pay more tax then there is nothing i can do. But you shouldnt feel guilty for your situation.

[SandyCromarty]

4 hours ago, Paco said:

Is there any scope for the next Scottish Government to go a bit nuclear and change the voting system to outright FPTP?

It’d be a dreadful look, and it may be a moot point as the Greens would be needed to vote it through and they’d be voting to put themselves out of parliament.

But if a referendum is turned down due to the lack of a majority, in a system designed to prevent a majority, something has to give.

I don’t think even the most ardent Unionist would be under any illusion that the SNP, currently, would have a thumping majority in a FPTP system.

That would be viewed as political corruption and would give the SNP a Dictatorship tag

[GordonS]

6 hours ago, Paco said:

Is there any scope for the next Scottish Government to go a bit nuclear and change the voting system to outright FPTP?
 

Pretty sure that's reserved. It definitely was until the Scotland Act 2016 when some powers over elections were devolved, I don't think this bit was but I'm not 100% sure.

FWIW, in the 2007 election the SNP got the most votes, but if it had been on FPTP Labour would have still got an outright majority.

[HoBNob]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/11/boris-johnson-will-no-second-scottish-independence-referendum/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_iosshare_Aw0H25gRGBXl

[Stellaboz]

So he'll stand in the way of democracy. Absolutely tidy point in favour of staying in this union of nations then.

[BFTD]

No matter what you say, no matter what you do, we say Scotland has no route to leaving the Union. Pretty certain that's what the SNP have been waiting for, but we'll see.

More than any second independence referendum, the right for the country of Scotland to self-determine has always been the most important point, and is a principle that Unionists should also be prepared to fight for. But for too many, all that matters is clinging on to England's coattails at all costs, and they're terrified that they've been slowly losing the war for decades. Nobody seems to have worked out that it might be that attitude that keeps losing them voters.

[SANTAN]

Boris and his views have been known for a while, this shouldn't be a shock. 

I wonder if this rehash of his already known stance is to either try and commit Sturgeon to setting terms out, as in, if she were to respond to his view and say that if they have a majority then they should be listened to therefore making anything other than a majority easily dismissed or even trying to rile up the Yes Da's to pushing back against Sturgeon, "how can she campaign on something she knows Westminster will ignore anyway, surely she has to have a plan b? " or it's just a fluff piece made to fill some space. 

[John Lambies Doos]

Boris and his views have been known for a while, this shouldn't be a shock. 
I wonder if this rehash of his already known stance is to either try and commit Sturgeon to setting terms out, as in, if she were to respond to his view and say that if they have a majority then they should be listened to therefore making anything other than a majority easily dismissed or even trying to rile up the Yes Da's to pushing back against Sturgeon, "how can she campaign on something she knows Westminster will ignore anyway, surely she has to have a plan b? " or it's just a fluff piece made to fill some space. 

Tbh, she needs to get it across that it's a majority of pro Independence MSPs. (It's difficult because she doesn't want to lose support to Greens) Why Harvie is not plastering this message across, well everywhere, is beyond me

[Gordon EF]

18 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Boris and his views have been known for a while, this shouldn't be a shock. 

I wonder if this rehash of his already known stance is to either try and commit Sturgeon to setting terms out, as in, if she were to respond to his view and say that if they have a majority then they should be listened to therefore making anything other than a majority easily dismissed or even trying to rile up the Yes Da's to pushing back against Sturgeon, "how can she campaign on something she knows Westminster will ignore anyway, surely she has to have a plan b? " or it's just a fluff piece made to fill some space. 

I'd say Johnson, the WM government and unionist politicians have been trying very hard to avoid directly saying "it doesn't matter how you vote, I'll just say no anyway" and I'd argue, for very good reason. 

It's one thing to say 'now is not the time' and hint that you have the power to refuse a s30, it's entirely another to be forced to come and out say that you're going to ignore the election results and just say no. We can argue the toss about that but the simple fact is the Tories have done everything they can so far to not come out and say this explicitly so they know themselves it's something they don't want to have to do.

Public opinion is going to be crucial to this. No doubt the SNP are calculating that Boris Johnson (of all people) coming out and saying this is going to harden up soft Yes folk and push some undecideds and even soft Nos towards Yes and even anger a fair chunk of unionists who support Scotland's right to determine these things.

On the Tory side, the only real sliver of an advantage is that it puts the ball back into the SNP court and they'll hope that they f**k up the return. 

All depends how folk react to Boris actually standing up and saying "Back in your box, we're not listening to you" if it comes to that.

[Stellaboz]

I feel that the thing we have to do is go through with this route of voting in the Scottish elections, with this agenda firmly at the forefront. If Holyrood returns a majority of Indy-ref backing MSP's, there is more evidence to through against WM in this fight. It's a necessary step. 

[SANTAN]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

I'd say Johnson, the WM government and unionist politicians have been trying very hard to avoid directly saying "it doesn't matter how you vote, I'll just say no anyway" and I'd argue, for very good reason. 

It's one thing to say 'now is not the time' and hint that you have the power to refuse a s30, it's entirely another to be forced to come and out say that you're going to ignore the election results and just say no. We can argue the toss about that but the simple fact is the Tories have done everything they can so far to not come out and say this explicitly so they know themselves it's something they don't want to have to do.

Public opinion is going to be crucial to this. No doubt the SNP are calculating that Boris Johnson (of all people) coming out and saying this is going to harden up soft Yes folk and push some undecideds and even soft Nos towards Yes and even anger a fair chunk of unionists who support Scotland's right to determine these things.

On the Tory side, the only real sliver of an advantage is that it puts the ball back into the SNP court and they'll hope that they f**k up the return. 

All depends how folk react to Boris actually standing up and saying "Back in your box, we're not listening to you" if it comes to that.

I agree entirely, both sides know each others positions but they're effectively having a political dance around the issue waiting on the other side to commit to something that they both know neither side will. 

[Glen Sannox]

Some interesting input from the Indy supporting Greens of late. Abolishing the Monarchy and 6pm curfews for men. Good luck with that.

[Glen Sannox]

16 minutes ago, Stinky Bone said:

English Green party only. 

That’s okay then.

[lichtgilphead]

[Baxter Parp]

 

[Baxter Parp]

[Blootoon87]

The Polish, a great bunch of lads.