Ad Lib Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 minute ago, renton said: History plays a role of course. There are no straight comparisons. The Spanish state isn't the UK. If course it isn’t. But in the context of a democratic state whose constitutional arrangements (probably) prohibit an independence referendum and definitely prohibit a unilateral Declaration of Independence, Spain/Catalonia is far more relevant an example than breakaways from a rapidly disintegrating soviet superstate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Ad Lib said: Now I wonder, which scenario is more comparable and relevant... a modern democratic Western state in which the right to secede for constituent parts is contested or ambiguous, or a breakaway from a disintegrating colonial soviet federation formed by conquest? Pretty sure the Soviets thought such successions were contestable as well. It's just that the political reality trumped the notional legal interpretation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Ad Lib said: Now I wonder, which scenario is more comparable and relevant... a modern democratic Western state in which the right to secede for constituent parts is contested or ambiguous, or a breakaway from a disintegrating colonial soviet federation formed by conquest? They're equally comparable and relevant, champ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Just now, renton said: Pretty sure the Soviets thought such successions were contestable as well. It's just that the political reality trumped the notional legal interpretation. Literally my point is that the political reality in Spain is more similar to the UK than the USSR, Renton... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Ad Lib said: If course it isn’t. But in the context of a democratic state whose constitutional arrangements (probably) prohibit an independence referendum and definitely prohibit a unilateral Declaration of Independence, Spain/Catalonia is far more relevant an example than breakaways from a rapidly disintegrating soviet superstate. Again though, it's about political will as much as anything. The UK for all it's faults is a modern western democratic state with a history of granting self determination in it's colonies where such sentiments were deemed to be the will of those people. Spain is a state where fascism more withered on the vine than was destroyed with a highly centralised state and a not 100 years old history of fighting a civil war, one aim of which was crushing entirely the rights and will of those breakaway regions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ad Lib said: Literally my point is that the political reality in Spain is more similar to the UK than the USSR, Renton... My point would be that there are still sufficient differences in history, outlook and culture to make the comparison problematic on all but a surface level. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) I'd say the situation here is more like Yugoslavia than Spain. The big country in the federation loses the plot and starts behaving irrationally, and Slovenia thinks, "f**k this, we're off before the shit hits the fan." Worked out very well for them. Edited June 12, 2019 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I'd say the situation here is more like Yugoslavia than Spain. The big country in the federation loses the plot and starts behaving irrationally, and Slovenia thinks, "f**k this, we're off before the shit hits the fan." Worked out very well for them. The English are not about to carpet-bomb the Welsh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ad Lib said: The English are not about to carpet-bomb the Welsh. Economically they are, even if the Welsh voted for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ad Lib said: The English are not about to carpet-bomb the Welsh. Well of course not, too many of their holiday homes in there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Ad Lib said: The English are not about to carpet-bomb the Welsh. Debatable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Just now, renton said: Well of course not, too many of their holiday homes in there. Can’t be that hard to establish a no-fly zone over the Brecon Beacons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Ad Lib still doing his age old routine of pretending that every minutae of international law actually matters when powerful people get in a room. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Tibbermoresaint said: And yet nobody doubts that when Quebec votes for independence, with or without the blessing of Ottawa, Quebec will become independent. Without the blessing of Ottawa, Yes will win with a 99 percent share of the vote on a small turnout, and perhaps leave independence further away than had the referendum not been held in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 This is still more interesting than any debate involving Strichener tbf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 28 minutes ago, sparky88 said: Without the blessing of Ottawa, Yes will win with a 99 percent share of the vote on a small turnout, and perhaps leave independence further away than had the referendum not been held in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) FFs not this pish again. breakaway region - we will hold a referendum on independence. central government - we do not give permission and as such any referendum you hold is unlawful and therefor the result means nothing breakaway region - say that all you want but if the people vote for it then it will be pretty hard for you to ignore! central government - no, we make the laws and we decide if somethings legal or not. breakaway region - but if the majority of the people turn out and vote then you will look bad in front of the international community. central government - good luck with that, unless you have an overwelming cast iron backing from all the population then your buckshee referendum result will mean nothing and the international community will back us to the hilt. indy supporters - we should go and vote, show them how we feel remain suppporters - , its not a legal referendum and to go and vote will give the other side more chance of legitimacy . we should not vote at all. no percentage in favour of yes will ever stand up to scrutiny on a 48 % turn out. just ignore the noise makers Edited June 12, 2019 by effeffsee_the2nd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 FFs not this pish again. breakaway region - we will hold a referendum on independence. central government - we do not give permission and as such any referendum you hold is unlawful and therefor the result means nothing breakaway region - say that all you want but if the people vote for it then it will be pretty hard for you to ignore! central government - no, we make the laws and we decide if somethings legal or not. breakaway region - but if the majority of the people turn out and vote then you will look bad in front of the international community. central government - good luck with that, unless you have an overwelming cast iron backing from all the population then your buckshee referendum result will mean nothing and the international community will back us to the hilt. indy supporters - we should go and vote, show them how we feel remain suppporters - , its not a legal referendum and to go and vote will give the other side more chance of legitimacy . we should not vote at all. no percentage in favour of yes will ever stand up to scrutiny on a 48 % turn out. just ignore the noise makers Excellent to hear "buckshee" back in use and I'm in agreement that said unauthorised plebiscites are a waste of time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Could the Scottish government take the case to the ECJ rather like what happened over the UKs unilateral right to revoke A50? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Excellent to hear "buckshee" back in use and I'm in agreement that said unauthorised plebiscites are a waste of time. Yep exactly. For the record i support independence. I think it’s very unfair that those opposed to it have the power to block a vote on it . Both here and abroad. I was referring to catalonia in my example.Nevertheless If the snp tried the the same trick here they would just end up making fools of themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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