When will indyref2 happen?

[renton]

2 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

Yes. We are 3rd richest area of the UK behind the South East and the city of London and that's without the massive transport subsidies that the South sponges off every area of the UK including all the English counties. It's not much of a stretch to conclude that we are indeed the richest nation in the UK.

Added to fact we have more far more space, water( more fresh water in Loch Ness than every lake in England combined),oil, huge renewable potential, a highly educated population with a fairly low gammon count.

It's not even close. England is pretty shite mate.

Should definitely be something your GP checks for.

[HTG]

53 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

So left Scotland with no real voice and forced us to contribute to the funding of an anti gay, anti abortion party in a different country?

You won't be talking me out of independence with that patter...

He's a total arsehole who's all over the place. 

[Malky3]

1 hour ago, Double Jack D said:

So left Scotland with no real voice and forced us to contribute to the funding of an anti gay, anti abortion party in a different country?

You won't be talking me out of independence with that patter...

Could have teamed up with the Tories and steered the government to boost funding to Scotland but instead the SNP MPs and leadership worried more about their electability. A classic case of putting personal gain above the country and yet people claim voting for them is patriotic 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

It's not really.
All nations are to a greater or lesser degree subjugated by political or economic forces imposed on them from outside. No one is seriously asking for isolationism here, we will be interdependent with others regardless. 
The point of independence is to remove the close political control of Westminster in favour of a looser economic relationship. We give up some sovereignty by being in the EU, of course we do, but compared to the current situation an independent Scotland in the EU will have a far larger degree of sovereignty than it does as a "region" of the UK.

This.

Democracy should be about having decisions at the appropriate level.

Some need to be made globally or on a European scale.

Others need to be made at the Scottish level.

The problem now is that too many decisions are made at Westminster that ignore the Scottish dimension and are made for the benefit of the SE of England.

[Malky3]

33 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

Ah. The fiscal black hole and having to pay more tax in Scotland.

What angry britnats always fail to get, or more likely due to nationalist ideology don't like to mention, is that the said "black hole" does not exist because of Scotland's finances. It is due to us having to assume a share of Westminsters deficit and debt repayment. 

Further, the money we pay to Westminster in the form of block grant remains consistent. In real terms, the part of our money we are getting returned from Westminster for being a good wee colony, is dropping. Fraser of Allander estimates that the discretionary budget has dropped about 5% since 2011, Scotgov itself estimates 7.5%. That is a lot of money. That is your "black hole"

The Scottish govt rightly prioritises essential public services. It has been granted extremely limited tax raising powers. It is having use these to mitigate the disaster that is Westminster. That is why the income tax has went up for the few who can afford it.

No one wants more tax. But unarguably Scotgov is doing the right thing in trying to protect services.

Granting Holyrood limited tax raising powers always had the smell of a Westminster stitch up. It's now very easy for them to pull the plug, then watch Scotgov take the flack for trying to stem the flow.

The tragedy is so many of our Malky types buy in to it.

 

And that UK debt - are you going to claim Scotland had no part in it? 

[dirty dingus]

3 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Could have teamed up with the Tories and steered the government to boost funding to Scotland but instead the SNP MPs and leadership worried more about their electability. A classic case of putting personal gain above the country and yet people claim voting for them is patriotic 

And share a platform with a party that actively attacks the most vulnerable in society, maybe to someone with your morals this kind of partnership is a good thing, luckily your in a minority in Scotland. 

[git-intae-thum]

1 minute ago, Malky3 said:

And that UK debt - are you going to claim Scotland had no part in it? 

No. There was no reason for Scotland to attain that level of debt in the first place.  It has been built up by consecutive Westminster governments trying to cover up the fact that the UK is broke. At some point the bubble will burst.

Scotland or Scotgov has had no control over how that debt was attained and has no legal liability to it?

[Malky3]

1 hour ago, dirty dingus said:

And share a platform with a party that actively attacks the most vulnerable in society, maybe to someone with your morals this kind of partnership is a good thing, luckily your in a minority in Scotland. 

...and this way the Nationalist get to continue to bleat that they can't get influence at Westminster. Grievance rather than action. Its the SNP way

[Malky3]

1 hour ago, git-intae-thum said:

No. There was no reason for Scotland to attain that level of debt in the first place.  It has been built up by consecutive Westminster governments trying to cover up the fact that the UK is broke. At some point the bubble will burst.

Scotland or Scotgov has had no control over how that debt was attained and has no legal liability to it?

Aye so RBS never happened?

[git-intae-thum]

3 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Aye so RBS never happened?

Eh......what does that have to do with Scotland and it's finances.

[Malky3]

Just now, git-intae-thum said:

Eh......what does that have to do with Scotland and it's finances.

Ask Alex Salmond. The man so desperate to have them as the biggest bank in the world he offered them all the support Scotland could give to help buy ABN Amro. 

 

[Tibbermoresaint]

14 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Ask Alex Salmond. The man so desperate to have them as the biggest bank in the world he offered them all the support Scotland could give to help buy ABN Amro. 

 

[git-intae-thum]

16 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Ask Alex Salmond. The man so desperate to have them as the biggest bank in the world he offered them all the support Scotland could give to help buy ABN Amro. 

 

Fair play to you. You kept up the knowledgeable act for a good few pages.

[BawWatchin]

Why are people still responding to this WUM? It has already been established that they don't live in Scotland.

[Double Jack D]

3 hours ago, Malky3 said:

WIthin the UK Scotland has a level of control over it's own financial and fiscal imperatives too. Our Scottish Parliament has also chosen, wrongly in my opinion, not to invest in nuclear power favouring instead to cut down trees to create wind farms. The SNP could also have chosen to align with the Conservatives to form the current UK government, and had there been fewer Scottish Conservative MP's in the parliament, the SNP could have formed an alliance with the Labour Party to form a different UK Government. The only difference I see between Westminster and the European Parliament is that there would be far fewer Scottish representatives in Brussels than there is in Westminster. 

As for looser control - I'm not sure the Greeks or the Italians would agree with that. 

 

2 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Could have teamed up with the Tories and steered the government to boost funding to Scotland but instead the SNP MPs and leadership worried more about their electability. A classic case of putting personal gain above the country and yet people claim voting for them is patriotic 

 

32 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

...and this way the Nationalist get to continue to bleat that they can't get influence at Westminster. Grievance rather than action. Its the SNP way

 

31 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Aye so RBS never happened?

 

24 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Ask Alex Salmond. The man so desperate to have them as the biggest bank in the world he offered them all the support Scotland could give to help buy ABN Amro. 

 

This started so well a couple of pages ago but has deteriorated somewhat. You are now simply spouting out inaccurate, spurious anti SNP propaganda which does the Scottish Independence debate no favours at all. 

I'm actually quite amazed that anyone thinks that political parties should just ditch their political objectives which they were elected on for some money.... Seems like its just one of the many, many issues we will disagree on.

Your mind is as closed to independence as mine is to unionism, we'll just leave it there.

 

[cdhafc1874]

Can you all start ignoring this Malky zoomer & stop quoting him.

It takes a lot for me to stick someone on ignore but I hit it within reading 2 of his posts.

[Double Jack D]

1 minute ago, cdisaaccie said:

Can you all start ignoring this Malky zoomer & stop quoting him.

It takes a lot for me to stick someone on ignore but I hit it within reading 2 of his posts.

Sorry bud, guilty as charged.

However, I'm finding more and more that the Malky types are making as much a case for independence as anyone. I wouldn't be ignoring that 

[renton]

36 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Ask Alex Salmond. The man so desperate to have them as the biggest bank in the world he offered them all the support Scotland could give to help buy ABN Amro. 

 

Ask yourself why the majority of the RBS bailout came from the US federal reserve.

[Malky3]

26 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

 

 

 

 

This started so well a couple of pages ago but has deteriorated somewhat. You are now simply spouting out inaccurate, spurious anti SNP propaganda which does the Scottish Independence debate no favours at all. 

I'm actually quite amazed that anyone thinks that political parties should just ditch their political objectives which they were elected on for some money.... Seems like its just one of the many, many issues we will disagree on.

Your mind is as closed to independence as mine is to unionism, we'll just leave it there.

 

Thats true. The difference between us is I'm prepared to debate it. You, like so many other Nationalists, prefer to name call as soon as someone doesn't agree with you. It's precisely the reason Scottish Independence will never happen. 55% of Scots are entrenched No voters and the 45% are so incapable of persuasion they are left hoping they out live the 55%. Its a sad situation but its one the SNP is desperate to precipitate. Dividing the nation and damaging our financial stability is so much easier than doing the best for the people you profer to represent 

[Double Jack D]

2 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Thats true. The difference between us is I'm prepared to debate it. You, like so many other Nationalists, prefer to name call as soon as someone doesn't agree with you. It's precisely the reason Scottish Independence will never happen. 55% of Scots are entrenched No voters and the 45% are so incapable of persuasion they are left hoping they out live the 55%. Its a sad situation but its one the SNP is desperate to precipitate. Dividing the nation and damaging our financial stability is so much easier than doing the best for the people you profer to represent 

Name Calling? What did I call you? I thought we were having a debate on the merits of Independence/ brexit and the impact, primarily, on Scotlands prosperity.

I disagree that the 55% no vote is "entrenched" and wouldn't describe the Yes campaign as simply waiting for a change in demographics. I've also heard nothing from the SNP, Greens or any of the wider Yes movement (you should note the distinction) which seeks to divide along generational lines. 

I'm not sure if your last sentence is an attack on the SNP or Westminster.... IMO the governance, particularly of Scotland, from Westminster is the single most damaging thing to Scotland's financial stability at this present time. I'm fairly sure you can find a wide range of expert opinion that backs that up.