Things that are eroding British Nationalism

[Antlion]

It seems to me that a number of events are contributing to the slow, drip-drip erosion of unionism in Scotland. These are ongoing, and were evidently not in place for the Yes side to win the referendum. Amongst them, I recognise:

The decline of Religion: religion all over Scotland is mercifully dying. As someone raised a Cafflick, I can remember the "Tim", "proddy" shite thrown between competing playgrounds, and perceive that it's on the wane along with the influence of the Presbyterian and Catholic Churches. Few people have time for the OO fringe these days.

The death of Rangers: 'nuff said.

The rise of social media and decline of print journalism: people are harder to control via the presses, and an increasing number don't trust the mainstream media.

Devolution: it introduced the idea that power over Scotland does not need to be centralised in an increasingly unpopular London parliament.

The end of the Empire: the union was an imperial enterprise, with Scotland a willing partner. Now the empire is extinct.

The decline of Labour: once seen as a credible alternative. The scales have fallen from many eyes about this shower, and the fact that we don't actually have the power to oust the Tories (blue or red) is an increasingly bitter pill for many.

The growth in national identity: Scotland's universities and schools are shedding the Scottish cringe that dominated for decades. People now celebrate Scottish literature, art and music as opposed to considering it a redneck cousin of English culture.

EVEL: the latest. Scotland's MPs are now effectively barred from the UK's top jobs in government. The pretence that we are an equal partnership of nations is over.

With all these things, it's really hard to imagine "Britishness" and regionalism making inroads, and not just stemming the wave of Scottish nationalism, but reversing it and flooding it with British nationalism (to mangle a metaphor). Times seem to be a-changing.

[invergowrie arab]

I can't be arsed going through all that if you are going to use the independent and original devolved institution of the Kirk as a symbol of the union.

[Antlion]

I can't be arsed going through all that if you are going to use the independent and original devolved institution of the Kirk as a symbol of the union.

The Scottish Kirk began as a cautiously unionist institution in the political sense, from its inception in 1560 (when it favoured league with England rather than Catholic alliance with France and the Guises) through its centralisation under staunch unionist James VI (who sought "more perfect union" - i.e. parliamentary union - upon his accession to the throne of England).

However, it would probably be more accurate to change that to "decline of religion", which has resulted in more people viewing Scotland's future less tribally.

[Mr Heliums]

I think the decline of shared British institutions also plays a part. Whether it was the Post Office or British Railways there was a sense that we all owned a stake in it together. I know we still have things like the BBC, but well that's another issue entirely.

[Antlion]

I think the decline of shared British institutions also plays a part. Whether it was the Post Office or British Railways there was a sense that we all owned a stake in it together. I know we still have things like the BBC, but well that's another issue entirely.

The BBC is one of the last bastions of "Britishness", I think. That may be why it attracts anger and adoration in equal measure from Scottish and British nationalists.

Looking at it impassionately, it's output is horrendously biased in a lot of ways (not always against independence, but other things), and it's dramatic output is a shadow of its glory days.

[Deeboy]

Bluhdy Foreigners.

[BerwickMad]

It seems to me that a number of events are contributing to the slow, drip-drip erosion of unionism in Scotland. These are ongoing, and were evidently not in place for the Yes side to win the referendum. Amongst them, I recognise:

The decline of Religion: religion all over Scotland is mercifully dying. As someone raised a Cafflick, I can remember the "Tim", "proddy" shite thrown between competing playgrounds, and perceive that it's on the wane along with the influence of the Presbyterian and Catholic Churches. Few people have time for the OO fringe these days.

The death of Rangers: 'nuff said.

The rise of social media and decline of print journalism: people are harder to control via the presses, and an increasing number don't trust the mainstream media.

Devolution: it introduced the idea that power over Scotland does not need to be centralised in an increasingly unpopular London parliament.

The end of the Empire: the union was an imperial enterprise, with Scotland a willing partner. Now the empire is extinct.

The decline of Labour: once seen as a credible alternative. The scales have fallen from many eyes about this shower, and the fact that we don't actually have the power to oust the Tories (blue or red) is an increasingly bitter pill for many.

The growth in national identity: Scotland's universities and schools are shedding the Scottish cringe that dominated for decades. People now celebrate Scottish literature, art and music as opposed to considering it a redneck cousin of English culture.

EVEL: the latest. Scotland's MPs are now effectively barred from the UK's top jobs in government. The pretence that we are an equal partnership of nations is over.

With all these things, it's really hard to imagine "Britishness" and regionalism making inroads, and not just stemming the wave of Scottish nationalism, but reversing it and flooding it with British nationalism (to mangle a metaphor). Times seem to be a-changing.

f**k off to another forum please. Still nothing about football. People can make their own mind up without political propaganda from people like yourself.

[Antlion]

f**k off to another forum please. Still nothing about football. People can make their own mind up without political propaganda from people like yourself.

Oh dear. Perhaps I should have made the title "things that upset Berwick Mad".

[Fudge]

I think the main thing is the increasing time from and dwindling number of people who remember the second world war (or the say, 10 years after when rationing etc was still in place)

[The_Kincardine]

The Scottish Kirk began as a cautiously unionist institution in the political sense

It did not at all. The early reformation church was much more concerned about Scottish matters than international ones.

Its centralisation under staunch unionist James VI (who sought "more perfect union" - i.e. parliamentary union - upon his accession to the throne of England).

Bollocks again. The CoS has never been centralised and this notion is, in fact, anathema to its basic credo.

The nearest you can get to 'unionism' in your parochial world of bigotry is the fact that The Westminster Confession of Faith came within a baw hair of being the 'standard' for churches in England. This, though, would be a reverse-takeover and way beyond your small-minded sphere of understanding.

[Mark Connolly]

I can't be arsed going through all that

If only I had taken the same approach

[BerwickMad]

Oh dear. Perhaps I should have made the title "things that upset Berwick Mad".

I'm quite happy to agree and disagree with people on here about political issues, or anything really. It's what the forum is for. It's a forum for people with an interest in Scottish football.

I don't think it's for people coming here for the sole purpose of pushing a political agenda. Even if I was agreeing with them, it's not really what this place should be used for imo.

[RedRob72]

British Nationalism has always looked in from the outside and has never had a strong foothold in a political sense, in the main nationalism just doesn't hold sway with the ordinary man in the street. It's also why British Nationalists never do f*ck all in General Elections. British Unionism however remains strong, resulting in a clear vote to retain our place within. I believe the majority of the rest of the UK also welcomed our choice.

[Antlion]

It did not at all. The early reformation church was much more concerned about Scottish matters than international ones.

Bollocks again. The CoS has never been centralised and this notion is, in fact, anathema to its basic credo.

The nearest you can get to 'unionism' in your parochial world of bigotry is the fact that The Westminster Confession of Faith came within a baw hair of being the 'standard' for churches in England. This, though, would be a reverse-takeover and way beyond your small-minded sphere of understanding.

I think you're confusing religion with political union and political alliance. John Knox and the early forefathers of the Scottish Kirk were very much pro political union with England (probably rightly) as the English reformation had made their southern neighbours their co-religionists. Look up the machinations of Knox, Moray and the rest of the Protestant nobility - their goal was religious and political dominance of Scotland and alliance with England, and the alternative what they considered "papistry" and alliance with France.

What has this to do with the political union of 1707? Only this - it was an idea championed by James VI and I, but rejected by the sovereign parliaments of England and Scotland and shelved until 1707. Religion and politics, sadly, were inextricably linked in the early modern period. That link, I would argue, is being broken. And I'm ok with that.

[AUFC90]

I'm quite happy to agree and disagree with people on here about political issues, or anything really. It's what the forum is for. It's a forum for people with an interest in Scottish football.

I don't think it's for people coming here for the sole purpose of pushing a political agenda. Even if I was agreeing with them, it's not really what this place should be used for imo.

It's the politics thread If you want a football thread you know where they are

[BerwickMad]

It's the politics thread If you want a football thread you know where they are

It's someone who has no interest in football spreading propaganda. To me, it would be the same if someone was coming on here with the sole purpose of pushing a religious message or any 'cause'. You may disagree, but I don't think it's a good thing.

[itzdrk]

I think it is Britishness itself which is the main cause.

[The_Kincardine]

I think you're confusing religion with political union and political alliance. John Knox and the early forefathers of the Scottish Kirk were very much pro political union with England (probably rightly) as the English reformation had made their southern neighbours their co-religionists.

This is wrong. Knox felt much more fealty with Rotterdam and Geneva than he did with London. Furthermore his treaties against female monarchs* backfired spectacularly when Eliz 1st became England's queen.

The rapprochement between Scotland and England began well after Knox's death.

*The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstruous Regiment of Women

[doulikefish]

Dont matter about religion,they are all zoomers

[Granny Danger]

To answer the question raised by the thread title, (ironically?) the erosion of British Nationalism is mainly as a result of English, professional and professional aspiring, working class voters who think they have more in common with the Tories than with Labour. Here's a wee tip; if you're a middle manager in Nottingham you have more in common with an unemployed, single mother in Hackney than you do with Dave, Gideon or Boris. The fact that you don't recognise this is to do more with your ego or prejudices than with reality.

As a socialist I am delighted to see the the erosion of British Nationalism. In an ideal world I would love to support a British left of centre party but the hard facts show that the only chance we have of a left-of-centre government is in an independent Scotland.

Before anyone suggests otherwise, I do not think the SNP in its present incarnation is the party to deliver such a government but it is the party that will deliver independence whilst mitigating the worst effects of a Tory government.