Scotrail

[die hard doonhamer]

Rail travel is a shambles across the board at the moment. I went down to Manchester on Tuesday, back up Wednesday. My Scotrail journeys between Perth and Glasgow were fine each way, but the journeys between Glasgow and Manchester with Transpennine were cancelled in both directions, meaning extra connections and a later arrival on Tuesday, and having to leave earlier on Wednesday in order to get home on the same day! Got on the Euston to Glasgow train at Wigan and it was rammed full. 

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

I recently travelled on the trams in Manchester (TFGM) and paying couldn't be easier.

There are contactless pods on every stop (IIRC at the railway stations as well) tap at departure stop and tap at the destination stop, it was very cheap to travel.

[IrishBhoy]

10 minutes ago, die hard doonhamer said:

Rail travel is a shambles across the board at the moment. I went down to Manchester on Tuesday, back up Wednesday. My Scotrail journeys between Perth and Glasgow were fine each way, but the journeys between Glasgow and Manchester with Transpennine were cancelled in both directions, meaning extra connections and a later arrival on Tuesday, and having to leave earlier on Wednesday in order to get home on the same day! Got on the Euston to Glasgow train at Wigan and it was rammed full. 

I’ve had to sit/stand in the vestibule area travelling from Euston multiple times when I worked down there. The worst one ever was when I had been at the Lomachenko fight at the o2 on the Saturday night and had stupidly booked the 8.30 train to Glasgow for the Sunday morning. I hadn’t had a wink of sleep and lay in the most uncomfortable position in the vestibule for what felt like days. Genuinely one of the worst experiences in my life. I eventually got a seat on the unreserved coach after Carlisle but the damage had been done. 

['WellDel]

14 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

The majority of the stations in the Western Central belt have barrier entry now.

Maybe not as many as you'd think.

As an example, on one route through the central belt/west there are 25+ stops. Only 5 of those stations have barriers that would stop you accessing the platform without a ticket. Of the remainder, approx 15 have full/part time ticket offices but no barrier to prevent you from walking past without paying. The rest are completely open and unmanned. 

In the main, only city/major stations are protected to the extent that you can't pass through without a ticket. Thousands of punters chance it on a daily basis and onboard staff selling tickets are absolutely essential in the current state for trying to minimise fraudulent loss. (This obviously on top of folk who have genuinely been caught short of time and had to run/board at the last minute and who should, quite rightly, have the chance to buy onboard). A lot of folk on here, your good self excluded, don't seem to appreciate that and focus purely and bizarrely on the wages others are paid.

[IrishBhoy]

5 minutes ago, 'WellDel said:

Maybe not as many as you'd think.

As an example, on one route through the central belt/west there are 25+ stops. Only 5 of those stations have barriers that would stop you accessing the platform without a ticket. Of the remainder, approx 15 have full/part time ticket offices but no barrier to prevent you from walking past without paying. The rest are completely open and unmanned. 

In the main, only city/major stations are protected to the extent that you can't pass through without a ticket. Thousands of punters chance it on a daily basis and onboard staff selling tickets are absolutely essential in the current state for trying to minimise fraudulent loss. (This obviously on top of folk who have genuinely been caught short of time and had to run/board at the last minute and who should, quite rightly, have the chance to buy onboard). A lot of folk on here, your good self excluded, don't seem to appreciate that and focus purely and bizarrely on the wages others are paid.

Just after I posted that it did occur to me that there isn’t as many barriered stations as I imagined. Even Paisley Gilmour Street doesn’t have barrier entry, although there is always staff checking tickets in order to access the platforms. 
 

As you say, there should definitely be a distinction made between the person who jumps on the train just as the doors are closing, and the person who lives in Ayrshire but works in Glasgow and tries to dodge the fair on a daily basis. When I’m going into Glasgow my local station has two ticket machines and an office, so I always have a ticket before I board. If the situation ever arose where we arrived at the station as a train was about to leave I wouldn’t think twice about boarding without a ticket, as 9 times out of 10 there is a conductor on board. 
 

I’ve never found myself in the situation of getting to Glasgow ticketless and unable to get through the barriers so I don’t know how that would play out. I imagine the staff that patrol that area will have access to a ticket machine, although you are then relying on the honesty of the passenger to tell them what station they boarded the train at. 

[Lyle Lanley]

1 hour ago, die hard doonhamer said:

Rail travel is a shambles across the board at the moment. I went down to Manchester on Tuesday, back up Wednesday. My Scotrail journeys between Perth and Glasgow were fine each way, but the journeys between Glasgow and Manchester with Transpennine were cancelled in both directions, meaning extra connections and a later arrival on Tuesday, and having to leave earlier on Wednesday in order to get home on the same day! Got on the Euston to Glasgow train at Wigan and it was rammed full. 

I'm getting the train to Manchester in a few weeks time and noticed there's been numerous cancellations with the Edinburgh-Manchester Airport service in recent weeks. 

[Bairnardo]

I see we've moved onto "conductors get paid more than I think they deserve" now.

Christ.

[vikingTON]

7 hours ago, 'WellDel said:

There are literally hundreds of unmanned stations on the Scottish network with multiple entry points, and to barrier them all and make boarding trains without a ticket inaccessible would cost an astronomical amount. You would then probably have to actually man every station incase of any fault/barrier failure etc.

Completely agree with this; it's a total non-starter and most European countries *do not* have an automated barrier network for similar reasons. Swanning between a handful of major cities is not representative. 

Quote

Fare dodging is a massive problem, much more so than you might believe, and conductors selling tickets is a big factor in reducing it. 

Well no, if it's a massive problem currently, then conductors selling tickets cannot be a big factor in reducing it. They've been around for decades and yet the problem is at that scale. 

I'd suggest that a simplification of the rail fares, a post-pandemic scrapping of peak/off-peak and Scotrail's operators playing fair by restoring various advance ticket options conveniently binned 'because Covid' would remove much of the incentive for people to cheat the system.

Rather than being a public good, public transport has been degraded to a barely functioning cash cow and so people aren't going to think twice about depriving Dutch shareholders or similar parasites of their ill-deserved proceeds.

A more radical solution - given government ownership and its compelling need to meet climate targets - is for the taxpayer to take the hit and for rail transport to be made free at the point of use. 

Quote

A decent wage it may be, but still a working class wage nonetheless. 

What does that mean exactly? 

Edited June 17, 2022 by vikingTON

[Todd_is_God]

7 hours ago, 'WellDel said:

Fare dodging is a massive problem

7 hours ago, 'WellDel said:

conductors selling tickets is a big factor in reducing it

How can you work on the railway, agree that fare dodging is a massive problem, and still come to the conclusion that the best way to tackle it is to simply charge would be fare dodgers for the ticket they are trying to dodge

Fare dodging is a massive problem because there is absolutely zero penalty for getting caught doing it.

[Billy Jean King]

The majority of the stations in the Western Central belt have barrier entry now, certainly most of the ones I frequent. If you are travelling from a station like Lochwinnoch for example, where there is no barrier, and travelling to Glasgow Central, then unless you come across a conductor on board and buy a ticket, then you will be unable to get through the turnstiles when you arrive at Central. 
 
One of the differences between the German rail experience and the Scottish one, is the number of conductors on board each train. We travelled from Düsseldorf train station multiple times, and noticed that every single train that stopped at the platform would have 2 or 3 conductors on different carriages, who would stand on the platform until all passengers were on board and it was safe for the train to move. That probably isn’t financially feasible in Scotland for a number of reasons, but I do think every train should have at least one conductor on board; to check tickets and allow ticketless passengers to purchase one, and also to maintain safety on board the train in a way that a driver would be unable to. 

Nonsense. On the Ayr to Glasgow line there are just 2 stations with automated barriers out of 16 and that's just my local line !

[IrishBhoy]

1 minute ago, Billy Jean King said:

7 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

The majority of the stations in the Western Central belt have barrier entry now, certainly most of the ones I frequent. If you are travelling from a station like Lochwinnoch for example, where there is no barrier, and travelling to Glasgow Central, then unless you come across a conductor on board and buy a ticket, then you will be unable to get through the turnstiles when you arrive at Central. 
 
One of the differences between the German rail experience and the Scottish one, is the number of conductors on board each train. We travelled from Düsseldorf train station multiple times, and noticed that every single train that stopped at the platform would have 2 or 3 conductors on different carriages, who would stand on the platform until all passengers were on board and it was safe for the train to move. That probably isn’t financially feasible in Scotland for a number of reasons, but I do think every train should have at least one conductor on board; to check tickets and allow ticketless passengers to purchase one, and also to maintain safety on board the train in a way that a driver would be unable to. 

Nonsense. On the Ayr to Glasgow line there are just 2 stations with automated barriers out of 16 and that's just my local line !

Aye after posting that I realised there’s nowhere near as many with barriers as I thought there was. 

[19QOS19]

How can you work on the railway, agree that fare dodging is a massive problem, and still come to the conclusion that the best way to tackle it is to simply charge would be fare dodgers for the ticket they are trying to dodge [emoji23]
Fare dodging is a massive problem because there is absolutely zero penalty for getting caught doing it.

How would you issue fines though? If a Conductor gets grief trying to issue a ticket there's no chance they'll get the dodger's details to issue on the spot fines. Similarly, it would cost an absolute fortune to employ someone with any sort of power on the train who could demand the person's details - sticking up signs saying you could be fined for not having a valid ticket wouldn't deter fare dodgers in the slightest even if the odd person was fined. The reality of the situation is that giving Conductors 5% commission is the cheapest and easiest way to get revenue on the train and they must be happy enough with what they take in compared to what's lost or they'd surely change the system.


On another note - for a predominantly SNP voting forum, this thread really does have a helluva of a Tory viewpoints [emoji38]

[DA Baracus]

8 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

Paid on the spot, or contact details taken and a fine sent to you like a council parking ticket. Like they do elsewhere. Failure to provide details being an offence.

Conductor: "Give me your details for this fine."

Punter: "Nah, I'll just get off at the next stop."

Conductor: "..."

2 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

I see we've moved onto "conductors get paid more than I think they deserve" now.

Christ.

I asked earlier in the thread what the limit is for folk being allowed to ask for more pay. Seems we're getting closer to an answer!

44 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

How can you work on the railway, agree that fare dodging is a massive problem, and still come to the conclusion that the best way to tackle it is to simply charge would be fare dodgers for the ticket they are trying to dodge

Fare dodging is a massive problem because there is absolutely zero penalty for getting caught doing it.

How could it be proven that they were trying to dodge the fare? No one loses out if someone is charged for the journey they make. 

[IrishBhoy]

40 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Fare dodging is a massive problem because there is absolutely zero penalty for getting caught doing it.

Would conductors have the legal authority to issue monetary fines in Scotland though? I believe only the police are able to issue fines under Scottish law, that’s why all these fines that come from parking companies aren’t legally enforceable. 
 

As much as it definitely is a problem, it would be a nightmare to enforce. Can you imagine a conductor attempting to issue penalty notices to a group of drunken guys without tickets. It wouldn’t be worth the hassle that would inevitably follow, and wouldn’t be fair to put a conductor in that position either. 

[effeffsee_the2nd]

14 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

Would conductors have the legal authority to issue monetary fines in Scotland though? I believe only the police are able to issue fines under Scottish law, that’s why all these fines that come from parking companies aren’t legally enforceable. 
 

As much as it definitely is a problem, it would be a nightmare to enforce. Can you imagine a conductor attempting to issue penalty notices to a group of drunken guys without tickets. It wouldn’t be worth the hassle that would inevitably follow, and wouldn’t be fair to put a conductor in that position either. 

Perhaps deserving of another thread but do people in Scotland get away with unacceptable behavior simply because we are a nation of shitebags who don't like real confrontation or feeling uneasy

 

on your other point, like the private car parks, charges are something that you should pay and failure to is a civil matter, Fines are something you must pay and failure to is a criminal matter.  It would depend which category they fall into 

[Todd_is_God]

7 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

How would you issue fines though?

I've posted network rail's guidelines on this.

7 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

How could it be proven that they were trying to dodge the fare?

They've boarded a train without a ticket, which should incur a penalty. Had you read the links I sent you you would see that, for example, TfL issue an £80 penalty fair (reduced to £40 if paid promptly) for not having a valid ticket. If they can prove you were deliberately trying to dodge the fair this increases to £1,000. I imagine this is only really issued to repeat offenders, but it's certainly a deterrent.

9 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

that’s why all these fines that come from parking companies aren’t legally enforceable. 

They are enforceable. Rack up enough of them to make doing so worthwhile and they will take you to court for recovery of them.

13 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

As much as it definitely is a problem, it would be a nightmare to enforce.

Penalty fares are not designed to catch everyone, though. The idea is they are suitably large for those who are caught to make others think twice about trying it.

18 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

No one loses out if someone is charged for the journey they make.

You continue to miss the point. If I wanted to travel from, say Bellshill to Wester Hailes today, i'd have two options. Buy a ticket for £10, or board without a ticket hoping that I don't get caught, knowing that even if I do the worst case scenario is it costs me £10.

Without the threat of being issued a penalty fare, what incentive is there for anyone to do the former?

[jamamafegan]

Fare dodging isn’t exclusively a British problem, a quick Google suggests the Germans and Italians also have these issues as well. The article I read suggests fining people is flawed because some people simple give false details when being fined.

A big cultural shift in thinking is required here to get us to a point where fare dodging is looked down upon from society with disgust and it has become almost second nature to buy a ticket when travelling by rail. We will never have that way of thinking here for as long as the fare prices remain ridiculously expensive. Folk like WellDel will mewl about fare dodgers, I think the majority of folk don’t really care. Although the idea of a grown up person diving in and out of carriages or hiding in the toilets from the conductor is pathetically sad, I don’t have an issue with the ones who managed to pull a fly one by walking through open barriers at the stations and were not asked for a ticket onboard. I don’t have an issue with people profiting from ScotRails incompetence. Only when it gets to a stage where rail travel is affordable and fair will I rue the antics of the fare dodger, until then - dodge away and godspeed.

[IrishBhoy]

2 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Perhaps deserving of another thread but do people in Scotland get away with unacceptable behavior simply because we are a nation of shitebags who don't like real confrontation or feeling uneasy

 

on your other point, like the private car parks, charges are something that you should pay and failure to is a civil matter, Fines are something you must pay and failure to is a criminal matter.  It would depend which category they fall into 

I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that tbh, I think we have our fair share of people who don’t mind confrontation. Its slightly different for people who are at their work though, who most definitely don’t get paid enough to confront ticketless passengers and risk escalating the situation further, and could find themselves having to answer questions to their managers if they get themselves in a situation which turns in to physical violence, more than likely losing their job. I can’t see many people doing that for a £3.25 rail fare. 
 

I will admit I don’t know the technicalities that separate civil and criminal charges. I do know that private companies cannot legally enforce a monetary fine under Scottish law, and it’s why nobody ever gets taken to court in Scotland for non payment of parking fines issued by a private company. In England it’s a different matter and private companies can enforce these fines, and do take people to court for non payment.
Fines issued by police or traffic wardens are enforceable and must be paid, although I’m sure everyone already knew that. 

[Boghead ranter]

Jooking the train is, and has always has been in my experience, part of the sport of train travel.

[Hedgecutter]

I remember the good old (pre machine on every platform / barrier) days of boarding with the full intention of buying a ticket and waiting for "aaaaaany passengers on at Montrose or Arbroath", only to get a guilt-free free ride when a conductor failed to show.  Felt like a £16 lottery win.

Eta: I recently managed to cheat the barriers by tailing somebody through (the 'push here for assistance' machine was taking far too long to connect through).  Seemed easy enough, even with two large kit-bags.  I did actually have a valid ticket for travel, just that the barrier rejected it because I had just stupidly used it to get through the wrong set of gates a few mins earlier.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Hedgecutter