General Politics Thread

[Duries Air Freshener]

Unsurprising to see the usual suspects at their obnoxious best.

[Dawson Park Boy]

33 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

36 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Child benefits and OAP would cover that through the contributory system as we have now.
Also unemployment and sickness would be covered.
Again - the safety net but never a permanent entitlement.

Can you detail the current provision for "permanent entitlement" for people able but not willing to work?

There isn’t one and nor indeed should there be.

This debate was about whether or not it was the state”s responsibility to provide foodbanks.

It isn’t and I agreed with poster who made that point.

[carpetmonster]

Just now, Dawson Park Boy said:

There isn’t one and nor indeed should there be.

This debate was about whether or not it was the state”s responsibility to provide foodbanks.

It isn’t and I agreed with poster who made that point.

The state doesn't provide food banks. 

[Duries Air Freshener]

2 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

The state doesn't provide food banks. 

No one said it does.

[carpetmonster]

4 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

No one said it does.

So when it comes to be the case - and it's becoming so at a frightening rate - that someone's working a full time job, yet still has to rely on the kindness of their neighbours to be able to eat, that doesn't indicate that the state isn't functioning fairly poorly?

 

ETA - I'm still waiting on any lies from the Member for Paisley & Renfrewshire South BTW. Very rude to try and jump into another discussion when you've bodyswerved the previous one. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by carpetmonster

[BFTD]

This is just pure Oaksoft bait.

Let's hope the "poverty doesn't exist" guy shows up, not the virtue-signalling imposter of recent times.

[Duries Air Freshener]

8 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

So when it comes to be the case - and it's becoming so at a frightening rate - that someone's working a full time job, yet still has to rely on the kindness of their neighbours to be able to eat, that doesn't indicate that the state isn't functioning fairly poorly?

 

ETA - I'm still waiting on any lies from the Member for Paisley & Renfrewshire South BTW. Very rude to try and jump into another discussion when you've bodyswerved the previous one. 

Depends on the circumstance of each individual case I suppose.

You could perhaps blame the state for not teaching it’s citizens to build up savings, but I’d argue that’s the job of the parents anyway.

The best thing we can do to combat food bank reliance is to have a grown up debate as to the causes of poverty IMO.

Maybe even aim for a society with high-trust, close-knit communities that look out for each other as a matter of course?

Easier to just have a bogeyman though - Boris and those awful Tories.

[carpetmonster]

17 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

 

You could perhaps blame the state for not teaching it’s citizens to build up savings, but I’d argue that’s the job of the parents anyway.

Good luck to the school leaver on a zero hours contract at 4.81 per hour on the hours they do get to work. 

17 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

The best thing we can do to combat food bank reliance is to have a grown up debate as to the causes of poverty IM

It isn't; it's paying people realistic wages, stopping corporation tax fiddling and having those who can afford it pay a fairer share. 

 

17 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Maybe even aim for a society with high-trust, close-knit communities that look out for each other as a matter of course?

That would be nice, however it was a notable Tory who proclaimed 'there's no such thing as society' and middle England seems to have bought into that fairly hard. Scotland seems to be less keen, but is too wee and poor and thick and should be happy surviving on a diet of cereal, obvs. Even then, if I'm working and still can't afford to eat, that's again relying on the kindness of my neighbours, who I'll have to hope earn a bit more than me. And if they don't, then I'll have to move into a nicer area. With money that I don't have. 

17 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Easier to just have a bogeyman though - Boris and those awful Tories.

I'm not much of a fan of Labour either TBF, however emergency food parcels issued by the Trussell Trust increased by 2543% between 2010 and 2019, so if it's not Tory policy that's fueling this increase, they're certainly not doing anything noticeable to mitigate it either. 

 

 

ETA - please come back to either me or @AsimButtHitsASix with Mhairi Black's fibs before you shape up for 'reasonable debate' on these points tho. Shockingly bad manners. 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by carpetmonster

[btb]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

It does talk about a ‘safety net’ which means that only when your income fell below that would you be helped.

Cradle to grave help when required that's what the Welfare State was meant to achieve.

Maybe you'd be happier dismantling it & going back to workhouses?

[Duries Air Freshener]

28 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Good luck to the school leaver on a zero hours contract at 4.81 per hour on the hours they do get to work. 

It isn't; it's paying people realistic wages, stopping corporation tax fiddling and having those who can afford it pay a fairer share. 

 

That would be nice, however it was a notable Tory who proclaimed 'there's no such thing as society' and middle England seems to have bought into that fairly hard. Scotland seems to be less keen, but is too wee and poor and thick and should be happy surviving on a diet of cereal, obvs. Even then, if I'm working and still can't afford to eat, that's again relying on the kindness of my neighbours, who I'll have to hope earn a bit more than me. And if they don't, then I'll have to move into a nicer area. With money that I don't have. 

I'm not much of a fan of Labour either TBF, however emergency food parcels issued by the Trussell Trust increased by 2543% between 2010 and 2019, so if it's not Tory policy that's fueling this increase, they're certainly not doing anything noticeable to mitigate it either. 

 

 

Good luck to the school leaver indeed.  Boris hasn't forced him to accept a zero hour, low wage contract.  Is the company presumably offering him low hours and low pay not in the wrong here?  What grades did he get at school?  Are his family able to support him?  Where does he live?  What can he cut back on to save money?  A school leaver using a foodbank straight after they finish school seems like an outlier.. not saying it can't happen, but there would be more to delve into before we just blame the government.

A grown up debate is indeed needed.  I also think we need a huge cultural shift in several ways, but I'm not going to go into them on here.  Let's just call them 'trad'.  How would stopping corporation tax fiddling and having those who can afford it help those using foodbanks?  It'd make the problem worse IMO.  Big business would just use it as an excuse to cut wages further!

I disagree with Thatcher's comments about society and found them to be cold and harmful.

That emergency food parcel statistic is alarming, but I just don't see how we can automatically blame the government.  There will be lots of different reasons for each example.  

And I think you for keeping it respectful.

P.S. A diet of cereal sounds awright!  As long as it's weetos.. om nom nom!

Edited May 19, 2022 by Duries Air Freshener

[Dawson Park Boy]

6 minutes ago, btb said:

Cradle to grave help when required that's what the Welfare State was meant to achieve.

Maybe you'd be happier dismantling it & going back to workhouses?

I agree with the emphasis on ‘when required’.

Cant imagine anyone wanting to be beholden on the state but if circumstances such as illness, unemployment come along then the state should be there to help until things improve..

Dont see where you get all this ‘dismantling and workhouse’ stuff?

Maybe you should read what people say a little more carefully.

[sophia]

4 hours ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

Are you going to put him on your ever expanding ignore list ?

Indeed, the rancid schtick is rancid 

[carpetmonster]

18 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Good luck to the school leaver indeed.  Boris hasn't forced him to accept a zero hour, low wage contract.  Is the company presumably offering him low hours and low pay not in the wrong here?  What grades did he get at school?  Are his family able to support him?  Where does he live?  What can he cut back on to save money?  A school leaver using a foodbank straight after they finish school seems like an outlier.. not saying it can't happen, but there would be more to delve into before we just blame the government.

Destruction of apprenticeship schemes and workers rights by successive right wing administrations may mean they have no other option. The company will offer them as low as they feel they can get away with, that's how capitalism works. Why does it matter the grades they got? 

18 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

A grown up debate is indeed needed.  I also think we need a huge cultural shift in several ways, but I'm not going to go into them on here.  Let's just call them 'trad'.  How would stopping corporation tax fiddling and having those who can afford it help those using foodbanks?  It'd make the problem worse IMO.  Big business would just use it as an excuse to cut wages further!

Big business cannot cut wage to less than minimum wage, unless they successfully lobby the administration to drop that rate and then they can pay new lows. 

18 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

I disagree with Thatcher's comments about society and found them to be cold and harmful.

They were. 

18 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

That emergency food parcel statistic is alarming, but I just don't see how we can automatically blame the government.  There will be lots of different reasons for each example.  

Such as?

18 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

And I think you for keeping it respectful.

P.S. A diet of cereal sounds awright!  As long as it's weetos.. om nom nom!

Enjoy your scurvy. 

 

 

Any further update on Mhairi Black? I think this the third or fourth time of asking now. If not, please delete your post where you assert she was lying. I'm sure you'd agree throwing such slurs around is disrespectful in the extreme. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by carpetmonster

[btb]

16 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I agree with the emphasis on ‘when required’.

Cant imagine anyone wanting to be beholden on the state but if circumstances such as illness, unemployment come along then the state should be there to help until things improve..

Dont see where you get all this ‘dismantling and workhouse’ stuff?

Maybe you should read what people say a little more carefully.

Well if it's not gonna be cradle to grave support what else can you mean other than beginning to dismantle the Welfare State?

Maybe you should think about what you post and what it actually means, I'll try and help by pointing you to this Essay by George Orwell - Politics and the English Language.

George Orwell: Politics and the English Language

[Dawson Park Boy]

2 minutes ago, btb said:

Well if it's not gonna be cradle to grave support what else can you mean other than beginning to dismantle the Welfare State?

Maybe you should think about what you post and what it actually means, I'll try and help by pointing you to this Essay by George Orwell - Politics and the English Language.

George Orwell: Politics and the English Language

Still don’t really follow?

We pay taxes and NI and get child benefits when we have kids and OAP when retired. 
In between there are benefits as and when required.

What more do you want?

[Arch Stanton]

5 minutes ago, btb said:

Well if it's not gonna be cradle to grave support what else can you mean other than beginning to dismantle the Welfare State?

Maybe you should think about what you post and what it actually means, I'll try and help by pointing you to this Essay by George Orwell - Politics and the English Language.

George Orwell: Politics and the English Language

A Russian website, are we not boycotting those at the moment?

[btb]

1 minute ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Still don’t really follow?

We pay taxes and NI and get child benefits when we have kids and OAP when retired. 
In between there are benefits as and when required.

What more do you want?

That's not what you were saying 3/4 posts ago when you were saying support should be "temporary" - which one is it?

Like I said you should think about what you post and what it actually means.

 

[Bairnardo]

That's not what you were saying 3/4 posts ago when you were saying support should be "temporary" - which one is it?
Like I said you should think about what you post and what it actually means.
 

Hes a thick troll who has his opinions shovelled into him by the Daily Mail comments section and GB(igot) News.

[Dawson Park Boy]

Just now, btb said:

That's not what you were saying 3/4 posts ago when you were saying support should be "temporary" - which one is it?

Like I said you should think about what you post and what it actually means.

 

Support such as sickness, unemployment, disability should indeed be temporary as hopefully these setbacks will pass.

Things like OAP are contributed towards, although not funded by the state,and are received irrespective of the persons circumstances.
Cant see your problem but I think you’re just being awkward.

If the above isn’t cradle to grave insurance I don’t know what is. Are you suggesting that people should be receiving benefits as infinitum?

[Duries Air Freshener]

25 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Destruction of apprenticeship schemes and workers rights by successive right wing administrations may mean they have no other option. The company will offer them as low as they feel they can get away with, that's how capitalism works. Why does it matter the grades they got?  

But if the company is offering the low wages then surely that's the company's fault?  Grades matter, because good school grades can help one get a higher paid job.  There are so many other factors at play that'd need looked into before we just blame the government for the person having to use a foodbank.

31 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Big business cannot cut wage to less than minimum wage, unless they successfully lobby the administration to drop that rate and then they can pay new lows. 

That's true, but they'd still do things to cut costs.  Maybe they'd get rid of the person in question completely?  Maybe the business would go bust as a result of lack of investment from shareholders who up until now liked the profits resulting from the low tax paid?  There are other sides to the equation.  It's not just as simple as the government making businesses pay people more with no consequences.

35 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Such as?

The various reasons I've already outlined.  Can't get a job?  Maybe he's not tried hard enough or sent in a poorly written CV.  Can't keep a job?  Maybe he hasn't shown the right attitude.  Settled for a zero hours contract and is not being given many hours?  Maybe he should have searched for a job with full hours contracts.  Skint?  Maybe he should sell some luxury items or not go to the pub.  What plan had he put in place before he left school and why is it not working?

38 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Any further update on Mhairi Black? I think this the third or fourth time of asking now. If not, please delete your post where you assert she was lying. I'm sure you'd agree throwing such slurs around is disrespectful in the extreme. 

I'll go through the video again at some point and bring up another of her lies as you're now debating in good faith, which I appreciate.  Give me a wee while though.