Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[D-Fens Foster]

It’s obviously a divisive situation but the way i look at it is, when we signed KVV from Scunthorpe if you offered me his goal return that he’s gave us then we get 500,000 (if that’s even true). I would have been happy with that. 

[wellboy1991]

5 hours ago, Londonwell said:

My only wish with the Van Veen situation is that if he's certain to leave, which it looks he is, then I hope it's done and dusted very quickly. Be good to know what hand we're playing with asap.

The stinger for me is Max Johnston. Potentially a couple of mill left on the table there with him running down his contract. 

Max is the killer for me.

The boy is a top top player. He is easily a £2.5m to £3m full back. Genuinely I think he is that good. When you see what Hibs got for Doig etc it’s kick in the nuts for us to be getting the bare minimum.

['WellDel]

28 minutes ago, wellboy1991 said:

Max is the killer for me.

The boy is a top top player. He is easily a £2.5m to £3m full back. Genuinely I think he is that good. When you see what Hibs got for Doig etc it’s kick in the nuts for us to be getting the bare minimum.

I agree and think that he is the real deal. He looks to have the ability and doesn't lack confidence.  You can't predict or win them all though. It will definitely be an opportunity missed for the club revenue wise, but really hope the boy reaches the levels we all think he's capable of and goes on to do well for himself. Hopefully it is a situation the club learns from going forward in terms of sorting contracts early.

Edited June 16, 2023 by 'WellDel

[Kapowzer]

1 minute ago, 'WellDel said:

I agree and think that he is the real deal. He looks to have the ability and doesn't lack confidence.  You can't predict or win them all though. It will definitely be an opportunity missed for the club revenue wise, but really hope the boy reaches the levels we all think he's capable of and goes on to do well for himself. Hopefully it is a situation the club learns from going forward in terms of sorting contracts early.

I won't say it's when the contract was offered, a well thought of talent for quite a bit (I first heard positive things about him over three years ago) in the last year of his deal punted out on loan by an Academy Director turned manager early in his reign sticks in my craw. It just sends the wrong message.

He is getting sound advice from his Dad who's got the T-shirt and the hardest working agent in Scottish football working on his PR. Wither it be in the press or at the AGM it was cited he was all about getting first team exposure, a reserves or B team setup at a marquee club did not turn his head.

Getting brought back into the fold in January you can't blame him for thinking "why should I hang around?" especially as the countdown clock is ticking.

The criminal decision making of such an asset is a ball drop.

[Neil86]

11 hours ago, wellboy1991 said:

Max is the killer for me.

The boy is a top top player. He is easily a £2.5m to £3m full back. Genuinely I think he is that good. When you see what Hibs got for Doig etc it’s kick in the nuts for us to be getting the bare minimum.

I agree btw, but there is no way we would be able to get that sort of fee for Max. Hibs are able to command those sort of fees, same with Aberdeen and Mckenna. City clubs and all that.

Turnbull was off the back of 15 goals in half a season and we had two teams willing to meet the fee we wanted, which was about 3.25m? 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Neil86

[capt_oats]

The Johnston one definitely feels annoying although being objective about it I suppose the way things have panned out we probably had a relatively small window to do anything about it.

I wasn't in the room, I know a few on here were, but Hammell's "confidence" at the AGM that he'd sign feels pretty naive given by that point - when we'd bounced him out on loan to Cove - he'd been linked with a bunch of English clubs, before we even hit the Bologna, Torino, Sporting Lisbon, Monaco stage of rumours.

Similarly It seems unlikely that those clubs only started taking notice when he started getting a run under Kettlewell and he's pinging in worldies against St Mirren.

He's 19, he signed pro in the 2020/21 season presumably when he was 16/17? Happy to stand corrected but I don't recall any announcements of extensions since so presumably that first contract was a 3 year deal? It's really on us to have a plan for him and it doesn't really feel like we had that.

I get that the mothballing of development level football has probably impacted things but similarly I don't think we've helped ourselves in this situation by only really seeming to pay lip service to development.

He made his debut at 17 against Accies when they scud us 4-1 after Bevis got injured and SOD was sent off and makes his first start in the following game against St Johnstone where we lose 3-0 and only have 1 touch in their box all game or whatever.

I mentioned it the other day but it kind of feels like him spending the next season on loan with his old man was best for everyone concerned given the type of player Johnston is and the type of full back Alexander was after in his particular brand of football terrorism. He then picked up an injury that cut his season short but, I may be doing him a disservice here, I don't remember the reports from QotS being anything more than that he got on fine.

And that's the problem I guess, if it was a 3 year deal he was on - when do we offer that extension? After he makes his debut? After the first season? It's worth bearing in mind the 'links' to other clubs aren't recent either. The first mention of Luton being interested in him appeared in March 2022 while he was still on loan at QotS - so around a year and a half into his deal.

We were burned by dishing out long term deals in the Dom Thomas and Luke Watt era but equally by the time his agent is flying kites about clubs who are apparently interested it already probably feels a bit too late.

I think the frustration for me is that Kettlewell's shown that there was a shape we could have set up with that could have kept Johnston in the building regardless of the fact we'd ended up with two Scotland international right backs on the books by mistake. There are a bunch of posts in this very thread at the time suggesting McGinn goes on the right of a back 3 - I'm guessing none us making those posts have our Pro-Licenses.

Instead, our former Academy Director was wedded to his 4231 and Johnston was collateral damage and a 3rd choice. I've seen the argument made on another forum that his going to Cove helped prepare him for our first team and contributed to him making the impact that he has, which is factually true - butterfly effect, sliding doors and all that - but equally, as @Kapowzer's alluded to if he's a year left on his deal and our former Academy Director is papping him out on loan for 6 months...what are we actually doing lads?

Yes, the argument is he'll get minutes but the flip is that it doesn't exactly scream confidence that he's ready to contribute.

Tbh, I'm not certain that there's any version here where Johnston actually signs a new deal with us given the timelines but equally, I don't think we've done ourselves many favours in the way he's been handled.

Hopefully he heads off to Torino or Bologna and has a fucking lovely time.

Fucking hell, that's a long post but it's something that I've had thoughts about.

Edited June 17, 2023 by capt_oats

[Marinello]

Yup, hindsight and all that.

I saw Max for QOS a few times and it was clear that he had something about him not least versatility in so far as he could transfer pretty easily between RB and RWB.

But there wasn't anything to these eyes to suggest that a star was in the making.

Therefore, at the time, it seemed the loan move was the correct move for him.

In fact as recent as last December when he was a VERY late draft into the Scotland under 21's as a replacement ( in itself an indicator of him being a marginal consideration  for a pretty poor under 21 squad)  I don't recall too many clubs ( if at all) swarming around him.

My point in short  is that Motherwell shouldn't be criticised for not anticipating the remarkable but unexpected upturn in Max's fortunes.

[Kapowzer]

A number of great points there. You're getting a greeny purely on calling Alexander's style "football terrorism" which is possibly the most succinct description of it I've seen of it.

I think what you say boils down again to contempt those in the game have for a number of us sitting in the stands. I've not played above amateur level but over the course of a year I must watch about 100 games at all levels. I can tell more often than not when something is amiss or a change is needed and that's without any SFA/UEFA ticket. I don't think I'm an outlier among the posters on here, often there is broad agreement after a match. However, to be fair there's been many an epiphany "fair one" during the TV analysis when something is shared I overlooked or ball watched during it.

But this "show us yer medals" disdain at times directed at all sections of our support is as much a rid neck as it is infuriating but I get there's moon howlers who ask about dugout locations. We all know that at all levels of professional football, there's a "sit in your seat, eat your pie and shut the f**k up" uncurrent in private.

The modus operandi for any new manager's first press conference at Fir Park is: Great little club, salt of the earth support, community focus ....... and the golden goose ...... promoting youth. We are a selling club that relies on our academy setup, a canny buy, redemption arc for someone taking a step back to take two forward. When a manager comes in and spouts this (because it is intrinsic but also is a good PR return) then they can't overlook or dismiss it later when sat in the office in the bowels of the POD with a whiteboard.

I would say there has to be a serious discussion held at board level within the club about our long term strategies. If managers really care about advancing the club, then sticking rigidly to an "ethos", "philosophy" or want players to "express themselves" (all embarrassing concepts/buzzwords that have crept into our game), can't be allowed.

Turnbull went for £3m, Doig for £3, what would Wee Al have gone for with in 2021 if he was on the books to 2022? Based on that, Max it would be hard to argue is not a 7 figure player. When player sales can eclipse other parts of our income then it has to be taken seriously. If a manager arrives with a rigid formation or style of playing he should be getting asked why is it being stuck to at the detriment of showcasing such a valuable resource for us.

If you hire a manager having cited this youth stuff in his interview yet he goes out and buys journeymen who offer little more than 15 years in the game more, then he should be getting called upstairs for a coffee (without biscuits) and asked WTF? I'd argue it's more than just that, while remaining in the top league is core, there's nothing to say that can't be done with showcasing your sellable talent, putting it in the shop window and giving it the formation and tactics to flourish.

I've gone on before about us as a club looking for may hay while the sun is shining moments and putting everything to them. 3 (you could argue 2) games last season in cups cost us £1m easy, both against lower opposition. Now while relegation would eclipse that, you can absorb not getting results pretty much for half a season and stay in this league, and before Hibs and Aberdeen got their shit together, qualify for Europe.

I suppose it's why I'm so enthused with 4 months into project Ketts. While I don't think he looked as far down as the academy, he did assess what we had in the building and was pragmatic enough got the best out of our squad which lent itself to 352 which a fair few of us could see under two the previous managers and arguably Robbo too.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Kapowzer

[capt_oats]

7 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

A number of great points there. You're getting a greeny purely on calling Alexander's style "football terrorism" which is possibly the most succinct description of it I've seen of it.

In fairness I can’t take credit for it. That’s all @thisGRAEME’s.

[Cloontang]

Both us and Dundee are linked with signing Dipo Akinyemi from Ayr. 

[capt_oats]

2 minutes ago, Cloontang said:

Both us and Dundee are linked with signing Dipo Akinyemi from Ayr. 

That's a fake account.

Same one that had Theo Walcott to Hibs the other day.

[Cloontang]

10 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

That's a fake account.

Same one that had Theo Walcott to Hibs the other day.

Yeah I was looking at Twitter and noticed someone has created quite a few fake Daily Record Sport accounts. One even reports Louis Moult heading to St J.

[RandomGuy.]

11 minutes ago, Cloontang said:

One even reports Louis Moult heading to St J.

In a parallel universe we dont sack Callum Davidson is thats a real rumour, tbf.

[Kapowzer]

Maybe a moon howling post to some. Louis has got roughly the same game time with us than all his other clubs in the past 7 years. By all accounts he's a good guy and gets the off field stuff. As we're a first team coach down, I'd be behind offering him something as a bridge to coaching/management* while retaining him on the books. I suppose that is based on if he feels he's got another 4/5 seasons in him solely as a player and you'd imagine a higher wage. Also if it would be hard to juggle teammate one day, guy commanding respect and giving orders on the training pitch the next.

 

*To clarify management in general not necessarily with us

Edited June 17, 2023 by Kapowzer

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I think we should make him one of our highest earners and build the team around him.

[Archie McSquackle]

There's been a few comments about Johnston being OK at QotS but was he not also supposed to have been pretty average at Cove. On that basis,  how likely we was it we were going to be throwing a long-term contract his way before he impressed for us.? There would have been all sorts of Luke Watt comments flying about. 

[capt_oats]

13 hours ago, Archie McSquackle said:

There's been a few comments about Johnston being OK at QotS but was he not also supposed to have been pretty average at Cove. On that basis,  how likely we was it we were going to be throwing a long-term contract his way before he impressed for us.? There would have been all sorts of Luke Watt comments flying about. 

@CoveRangers1922 is maybe best placed to say how Johnston got on up there but broadly I think this is the thing that we haven't quite worked out yet tbh, not just with Johnston but generally.

In short, with the way Modern Fitba' has changed I don't think we get the chance to wait until a player at that level of development impresses for the first team because chances are they'll already have been flagged - see McKinstry, McAlear, Rice etc.

Johnston seemed to have been earmarked as the next one off the ML1 conveyer belt, we were doing bits of #content with him before he'd made his debut eg: 'Introducing the Next Talent' (16th January 2021) and you'd like to think that at least a few around Fir Park recognised his potential longer term ceiling.

In terms of an actual plan for him though,  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯? 

Without wanting to labour the timeline point; he made his debut against Accies 13th February 2021 (1-4) and his first start against St Johnstone on 20th February 2021 (0-3). The following season we loaned him to QotS for the season (Alexander), the first link of apparent interest came 9th March 2022 - Luton and Sheffield United (a year after his debut) before Sheffield Wednesday's name appeared on 7th October 2022 after we'd loaned him to Cove Rangers (Hammell).

We eventually recalled him in January 2023 and we know what's happened since then; Scottish Writers Young Player of The Year and apparent interest from Bologna, Torino, Augsburg, Monaco, Sporting Lisbon, Burnley, Brighton and Norwich amongst others.

Turnbull, Scott and Hastie were all offered their extensions at the same time and at the same point in their careers that Johnston is now and it feels like we'd seen a lot more of them at Dev level than we did with Johnston. 2 signed, 1 didn't (Hiya Jake).

Turnbull signed his 2.5 year deal at 19 on 29th January 2019, Scott signed his 3.5 year deal on 15th February 2019. Hastie obviously fucked off to Ibrox.

Clearly I've no idea when we opened discussions with those players - I'd imagine that we'd been looking to sort them out for a while before they were eventually announced and we're at the mercy of the players and their representatives as to when that happens. Either way in the case of both Turnbull and Scott they signed their contracts with less than 6 months on their existing deals.

Again, without actually knowing all the details, from the outside looking in it feels high risk if you're talking about players that you have hopes of actually cementing themselves as first team players.

The exception to that, for whatever reason, seems to have been Allan Campbell who we announced had signed a 4 year deal on 13th October 2017 when he was 19 (having previously been announced as having signed a 3 year deal on 30th March 2017 - when he was 17).

The next one is obviously Lennon Miller who's currently contracted to 2025 and we seem to have been getting in and around the first team at a young age. Youngest ever Motherwell player and all that.

Edited June 18, 2023 by capt_oats

[Casagolda]

We signed a second journeyman right back in his 30’s last summer to completely block the pathway of the clubs best emerging academy talent. 

The club really should be criticised for that. Regardless of whether the boy turned out more Jamie Semple than David Turnbull, we preach so often as a club about a pathway to the first team and in Johnston’s case there literally was none. 

We as a club haven’t been a afraid to chuck a lot of 2 year deals on decent money at some bang average journeyman in recent years. I mean I dread to think how much money we spunked on Josh Morris alone. If the club can’t invest and gamble on someone like Johnston then we’d be as well just shutting the academy down. 

It’s not just a Motherwell problem though, it’s a Scottish football one. Bigger clubs are now stealing our players more frequently as soon as they turn 16. If clubs like Motherwell want to hold onto them the only way we can do that is by offering them a genuine route to first team football. We can’t really wait until our best prospect is 19 anymore to introduce them to the first team. 

I think that’s why Lennon Miller has been in the squad so often this season despite probably being not quite ready yet to feature on a regular basis. Cause if he wasn’t getting a sniff here, he’d be just as well sitting in Newcastle or Chelsea’s academy as he would be ours. 

[Gianfranco]

It would be nice to be linked with someone.

[welldaft]

1 hour ago, Gianfranco said:

It would be nice to be linked with someone.

It would. But not if it ends up like the Snodgrass saga and similar in the past. 

In many ways I prefer us to find out when the player signs the actual contract. 

A wee bit more baffling is the relative silence on Van Veen. Was it not last Tuesday It was reported VV had agreed terms and we were in discussions. Everything is subject to speculation, but one wonders if we have indeed knocked back an offer or more than one…mmm….