Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Handsome John]

YB, you've been a critic of Robinson since pretty much from the start. Can I ask who you would rather was in charge?

With regards to the wholesale changes to the squad, surely the fault of that lands at the door of previous managers; notably the ones who allowed the average age of the squad to increase steadily by not refreshing the team on a more gradual basis? 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Handsome John

[Swello]

15 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Weren't Jake Taylor and Theo Robinson two of the few players with any kind of pedigree that we've signed recently?

This is what my concerns are.

1) - Steve Robinson has no reputation whatsoever as a manager.  He has not performed at Fir Park or anywhere else.  It may be harsh to judge him but that's his record as it stands and quite frankly, even though we stayed up, I was not impressed with either the style of football, performances or results during his spell in charge. It's not like our performance level shot up and we went on a run. Accies lost 4 out of 5 in the run in and that's why we stayed up.

2) - The scale of the changes.  Now everyone agrees that changes had to be made and areas strengthened but right now it looks like we could have 7, 8 or 9 players making a debut on the first day of the season.  Not only that but 7, 8 or 9 players that know nothing about the game here, our opponents, the grounds, the level of football, 7, 8 or 9 players that are entirely ignorant of the Scottish game. That's a big risk at any level of football but especially with the level of player we are recruiting from and with a manager with no track record whatsoever.  In fact didn't Robinson have to recruit a whole new squad at Oldham?  What happened there?  In fact if you look at the really good managers we've had in recent times they have not made enormous changes.  McGhee came in and turned around the Malpas team.  Brown came in and turned around the Gannon team.  When we've had these enormous wholesale changes it's generally not worked.

3) - Vision. Over the years we have seen a number of people come into Fir Park and try to mask inability by creating a 'vision for Motherwell'.  We had it with Gannon, with Baraclough, we had it with Boyle and now we keeping hearing about it with Robinson.  There's a big element of the support that absolutely love it, fall for it every time but 90% of the time when you hear this snake oil salesman guff it leads to trouble down the line. So when I hear the word 'vision' being banded about here, there, everywhere, it smells to me like bullshit. Now call me an old cynic, not the worst thing to be by the way, but I think history is on my side with this one.

4) - Connection.  When I go to see my club and the team is filled with lower league English players looking for a move up the ladder ASAP I just feel a sort of disconnect with the club.  I grew up watching Johnny Gahagan, Stevie Kirk, John Philliben or more recently guys like Scott Leitch or Craigan, Hammell and Lasley.  These guys had the club at heart, the same as I do.  When I go along to the first game of the season I might look out on to the field and not see one guy out there that has the club at heart, and that actually means something to me as a supporter.  Believe it or not, it's not ALL about results.  Now I realise we have to sell on players but I think it would be a real pity if Motherwell as a football club turned into some kind of revolving door for aspiring jobbers looking for a temp gig. 

Now I'm not making any bold predictions for next season.  I can't see the future.  The players brought might be great or at least do a job.  Robinson might surprise me.  But these are concerns I have.

 

Totally valid concerns. On the points you raised:

Robinson has no real track record as a manager (but has a decent enough one as a coach to be involved in a successful Norn Irn setup) and we can argue the merits of his appointment but he is in place and by keeping us up under difficult circumstances, he's earned his shot at this season IMO. You can argue that our performance levels didn't shoot up - but you can equally argue that our defensive record improved markedly and that you could also argue that Alex Ferguson couldn't have got a great performance out of the demoralised mess that was left after McGhee (long track record, had lost the plot) left. It was clear in the last recruitment that our job just isn't that attractive to established managers (low budget, negative perception of fan ownership, etc) - this is self evident from the fact that Robinson was the number 1 choice.

The scale of the changes I would argue is wholly necessary based on the poor state of the squad - I don't believe that we had any choice as the damage has been done over the past few years. It's worth mentioning that this is the 2nd wholesale rebuild that has been required after McGhee left us - not looking like a coincidence. I share your concern that we are trying to integrate too many at once but at least in doing our work early and getting them off to a training camp, the club have noted this and are at least trying to address it. It seems that when we have a clear-out that we don't see the best of the new squad until later - maybe the next season, so we should have our expectation is check.

On vision, I agree with you. I don't need to hear bullshit as I've got a pretty clear view of where the club sits in the grand scheme of things and hearing about vision and history makes me cringe but we need to sell something positive to the players. I suspect that behind closed doors, the vision sold to the players is "Do well, use us a stepping stone to a decent deal in England and we won't stand in your way" - which is fine by me.

On connection - I sympathise with this view as I feel the same on the surface. Except then I think about the players that I idolised when I was younger. Arnott was a hero of mine but so was Coyne and only one of them had the connection to the club, the difference is that Coyne clearly made that connection and built it up. Ditto Davie Cooper - possibly the best player I've ever seen in claret and amber - he was an arch *** with no feeling for our club and look how he came to be an absolute pivotal figure in our recent history and discovered life outside the OF. Luc Nijholt, Sieb and Mio were all foreigners that would never have heard about us before they came to the country - each one of them lit up the team and are worth 20 poor players that happen to have some sort of connection to us. To bring it up to date before I get too misty eyed - Loius Moult is surely proof-positive that connection doesn't matter a toss - it's the attitude of the player and whether he "gets" us or not that matters. The club are mostly signing players on slightly longer contracts and you have to hope that some players are about long enough for the place to get under their skin - but since Bosman, the nature of clubs has changed for the worse and connection to the club is going to be a much rarer thing...

TL:DR: It's right to have concerns but let's wait and see what happens

[The_Judge]

17 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

4) - Connection.  When I go to see my club and the team is filled with lower league English players looking for a move up the ladder ASAP I just feel a sort of disconnect with the club.  I grew up watching Johnny Gahagan, Stevie Kirk, John Philliben or more recently guys like Scott Leitch or Craigan, Hammell and Lasley.  These guys had the club at heart, the same as I do.  When I go along to the first game of the season I might look out on to the field and not see one guy out there that has the club at heart, and that actually means something to me as a supporter.  Believe it or not, it's not ALL about results.  Now I realise we have to sell on players but I think it would be a real pity if Motherwell as a football club turned into some kind of revolving door for aspiring jobbers looking for a temp gig. 

This .

[Al B]

Until we hand out contracts to guys that have the club at heart and everyone's raging at Jobs For the Boys....

[LondonHMFC]

Just watched this, and looks like you have signed one of the boys from it

 

 

[Mr. Brightside]

Minter

[Ya Bezzer!]

On 14/06/2017 at 18:28, Handsome John said:

YB, you've been a critic of Robinson since pretty much from the start. Can I ask who you would rather was in charge?

With regards to the wholesale changes to the squad, surely the fault of that lands at the door of previous managers; notably the ones who allowed the average age of the squad to increase steadily by not refreshing the team on a more gradual basis? 

I can't give you a name but to answer the question it's pretty simple, I'd rather have someone in charge who I could look at his record and be confident that he'd do a job for us.

To look at Robinson's record and be confident he'll do a job for us requires a sort of optimistic faith in the future based in pure belief, that's not where my mindset is, I'm an empiricist and a realist.

Robinson is the manager and I don't have a problem with that per se.  He's in the job and deserves a chance to show what he can do but until he's actually done something I will remain unconvinced.  That's not to say I am against him, I just need to see something to base my positive opinions on.  I've not seen that in either spell so far that Robinson has had at the club.  Overall I'm open minded but require to be won over with proof, which ultimately is points and performances.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my views are not fundamentalist - I'm quite happy to be proved unfounded or wrong on a message board than suffer a shitty season on which I'll spend rather a lot of time and money.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Ya Bezzer!

[Mr Waldo]

2 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I can't give you a name but to answer the question it's pretty simple, I'd rather have someone in charge who I could look at his record and be confident that he'd do a job for us.

To look at Robinson's record and be confident he'll do a job for us requires a sort of optimistic faith in the future based in pure belief, that's not where my mindset is, I'm an empiricist and a realist.

Robinson is the manager and I don't have a problem with that per se.  He's in the job and deserves a chance to show what he can do but until he's actually done something I will remain unconvinced.  That's not to say I am against him, I just need to see something to base my positive opinions on.  I've not seen that in either spell so far that Robinson has had at the club.  Overall I'm open minded but require to be won over with proof, which ultimately is points and performances.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my views are not fundamentalist - I'm quite happy to be proved unfounded or wrong on a message board than suffer a shitty season on which I'll spend rather a lot of time and money.

"Eh. I dunno"

[Ya Bezzer!]

30 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

"Eh. I dunno"

I'll let you know is you tell me what the manager salary is, what the team budget is, what the managers remit is, etc, etc.

Or do you just want a list of fantasy names?

Robinson is the manager, we are talking about him not a Football Manager save.

[Busta Nut]

I enjoyed that wee doc

[Busta Nut]

Ivor is defo a VL

[Del_Superwell]

In terms of the opinions regarding Robinson, I see a real trend developing now within Scotland at the moment with clubs who struggle, it seems like they are going away from the old experienced managers who were once viewed as a safe pair of hands and instead going for young enthusiastic coaches who have their own ideas and freshness about how they want the game to be played.   Few examples of this are Lee McCulloch at Kilmarnock, Neil McCann at Dundee, us with Steve Robinson.  Also outside the top flight St Mirren with Jack Ross who performed miracles with them being 15 points adrift at the bottom when he took over.

Usually In a relegation fight clubs like the ones I've mentioned would go for a Jimmy Calderwood or Jim Jefferies type manager to keep them up, I think clubs are going away from this trend now, could be wrong but that's just the opinion I've got now.

[thisGRAEME]

On 2017-6-16 at 17:55, Ya Bezzer! said:

I can't give you a name but to answer the question it's pretty simple, I'd rather have someone in charge who I could look at his record and be confident that he'd do a job for us.

To look at Robinson's record and be confident he'll do a job for us requires a sort of optimistic faith in the future based in pure belief, that's not where my mindset is, I'm an empiricist and a realist.

Robinson is the manager and I don't have a problem with that per se.  He's in the job and deserves a chance to show what he can do but until he's actually done something I will remain unconvinced.  That's not to say I am against him, I just need to see something to base my positive opinions on.  I've not seen that in either spell so far that Robinson has had at the club.  Overall I'm open minded but require to be won over with proof, which ultimately is points and performances.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my views are not fundamentalist - I'm quite happy to be proved unfounded or wrong on a message board than suffer a shitty season on which I'll spend rather a lot of time and money.

"basically, I'm just going to moan until he's good, and then I won't moan"

[Ya Bezzer!]

27 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

"basically, I'm just going to moan until he's good, and then I won't moan"

You, on the other hand, will applaud failure?

That's the way it works.  If you perform well you take the plaudits, if you perform poorly you take the criticism.  The way of the world, my friend. 

 

[fat_tony]

Thing is, how often over the past 15 years or so, have we appointed a manager with a record you could look at and be confident in?

Barraclough and Gannon both had fairly decent records I think, albeit at a lower level. But Butcher, Malpas, McGhee, McCall and Robinson all had patchy records or none to speak of.

I'd argue that Craig Brown is the only successful manager we've had with a proven record since probably the turn of the century.

So moderate success, to me anyway, isn't about what a manager has done before.

As long as someone comes in with the right ideas, gets a reaction on the pitch, and is able to learn from their mistakes, as I'd argue Robinson has so far, I don't care if they've had a glittering 30-year managerial career or this is their first gig.

[Swello]

There are very few managers that we've brought in since Tommy McLean (who was the manager when I started going) that I've had much confidence in from the beginning. Ironically, Gannon was the one where I thought we had signed someone who fitted the bill perfectly and he turned out to be a psycho (with a good contacts book). The route that we haven't really gone down is to "promote" someone from the lower divisions in Scotland who have done well for a few years and have the advantage of knowing Scottish football well but I guess we have tried to stay clear of paying compensation at any point..

When looking at the legendary "fifty CV's" that apparently arrive when ever our job is vacant, there are limited options for a club like us, that all have their benefits and  drawbacks:

1. Promote from within (assistant manager or long serving player): Jobs for the boys, coaches don't always make good managers (hello Maurice) but they will  "know the club and league"

2.Take someone "experienced" that's out of work: You may know their track record but they are typically out of work for a reason (eg, being shite elsewhere or (at best) being caught pumping the Chairman's daughter). I think all our "successful" managers of the last couple of decades have come by this route...

3. Take someone from the (lower) English and Irish leagues that's been successful but somehow no bigger club wants: Incredibly difficult to do IMO. At least they should know the transfer market...

4. Give a respected player (either for his record in the game or because he's been spotted reading a book or broadsheet newspaper (called a "deep thinker")) his first shot in management: A total punt - could be brilliant or could be Alex McLeish.

5. Go for a shot in the dark foreigner - either a former internationalist  that's reduced to applying for jobs in a provincial club in Scotland or invoke the Kampmann Principle and sign someone because they once managed a team that beat us in an early-rounds european game: This way lies the seaside leagues.

[Busta Nut]

http://www.mfc1886.com/mfc-podcast-summer-special-2017-episode-2/

Sparra is joined by Busta and Jay to discuss the close-season so far. On the agenda was new arrivals at the club, positives off the field at Fir Park, fan ownership proving to be stable and sustainable, the podcast’s fundraising for the Motherwell Disabled Supporters Association and much more.

[welldaft]

On 16/06/2017 at 17:55, Ya Bezzer! said:

I can't give you a name but to answer the question it's pretty simple, I'd rather have someone in charge who I could look at his record and be confident that he'd do a job for us.

To look at Robinson's record and be confident he'll do a job for us requires a sort of optimistic faith in the future based in pure belief, that's not where my mindset is, I'm an empiricist and a realist.

Robinson is the manager and I don't have a problem with that per se.  He's in the job and deserves a chance to show what he can do but until he's actually done something I will remain unconvinced.  That's not to say I am against him, I just need to see something to base my positive opinions on.  I've not seen that in either spell so far that Robinson has had at the club.  Overall I'm open minded but require to be won over with proof, which ultimately is points and performances.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my views are not fundamentalist - I'm quite happy to be proved unfounded or wrong on a message board than suffer a shitty season on which I'll spend rather a lot of time and money.

I think keeping us up was a damn good start.

You may well be proven right and find out he is not up to the task, but I differ in that I would give him the benefit of the doubt before surmising he is a poor appointment. 

I think he deserves that chance much as you or I would if we were starting a new job. 

I think he will do OK and we will improve on last season. May not be difficult but arguably only Hamilton, Ross County, St Johnstone and Partick are smaller clubs. St J are very well run and Ross C and Partick have access to more funds than we have. So any improvement on last year will be welcome. 

[capt_oats]

Just noticed an update from Alan Burrows there to a couple of guys querying about signings. Russell Griffiths should be confirmed this week (subject to medical etc) and we've got 4 trialists in for pre-season.

Given a couple of our signings have turned out to have been hinted at by casual mentions on Twitter I thought I'd chuck this one in; I noticed a guy who does a Fulham podcast mention us in relation to former Fulham left back Matt Briggs. He played for Fulham in the EPL and Europa league, through the youth levels for England up to u21s, he now represents Guyana and has just been released by Colchester United. Plays left back, left mid and can play centre half apparently.

As I say, I'm posting this fully acknowledging that it's based on nothing more than a speculative Tweet but still, he does sound like the sort of player we might be looking at.

[thisGRAEME]

Let me be the first to say:

BRIGGS, BRIGGS WILL TEAR YOU APART, AGAIN.