Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[Kyle]

4 minutes ago, djchapsticks said:

Oh aye I forgot!

That was one of my favourite things we've ever done. Usually it's us looking like halfwits so being canny for once was very enjoyable.

I think a lot of St. Johnstone fans last season did lament the signing of so many guys over 30 and giving them two year deals. In isolation, it's not necessarily a bad strategy. A two year contract to provide stability and experience is not in itself a bad thing.

Replicate this 3, 4, 5 times through a window and it's and issue though. Especially if you aren't willing to play hardball and give guys like this a bit less than they have become accustomed to in their careers. Many of you did express concern about how these deals would pan out in year two and possibly even beyond when legs started to go and one pre-season too many took effect so it's interesting to see that it appears that the issue so many supporters could predict happening is now unfolding in real time.

It wasn't just the signings themselves, we had a multitude of others already in the squad. 

We signed McGowan, Considine, Carey, Murphy and Clark who were all over 30. Only Murphy was a 1 year deal and he had an appearance based trigger. We already had Parish, Booth, Wotherspoon, Crawford, Murray Davidson, O'Halloran and I think May in that age bracket. We could literally field a functioning 11 of over 30s. (And all expensive no doubt too) 

My view is that Callum Davidson signed players to be short term fixes in his first window after we won the cups to keep us ticking over whilst he waited for his big move. Things quickly went to shit and that didn't materialise. We panicked in the January window 18 months ago but did enough to stay up. If Davidson had left at that point, we had some building blocks to put together a decent side, but we didn't and Davidson has put us in the position we're in now, presumably because he thought he was recruiting for a masters football team. 

Of course, he's not alone in this. Whoever sanctioned his signing sprees is equally culpable and time may tell moreso, after 2 years of abject failure and of rot setting in, what other team would sack that manager only to appoint the assistant? Maclean has literally not brought in any of his own back room team, just kept faith with what's already there. Mental really. 

[Hoose Rice]

49 minutes ago, Kyle said:

WRONG. We lost to stenhousemuir and ayr to exit the league cup, losing 4-0 at home to league one Stirling Albion was just a massive boot in the baws. Sure showed you 

 good man.

[djchapsticks]

7 minutes ago, Kyle said:

It wasn't just the signings themselves, we had a multitude of others already in the squad. 

We signed McGowan, Considine, Carey, Murphy and Clark who were all over 30. Only Murphy was a 1 year deal and he had an appearance based trigger. We already had Parish, Booth, Wotherspoon, Crawford, Murray Davidson, O'Halloran and I think May in that age bracket. We could literally field a functioning 11 of over 30s. (And all expensive no doubt too) 

My view is that Callum Davidson signed players to be short term fixes in his first window after we won the cups to keep us ticking over whilst he waited for his big move. Things quickly went to shit and that didn't materialise. We panicked in the January window 18 months ago but did enough to stay up. If Davidson had left at that point, we had some building blocks to put together a decent side, but we didn't and Davidson has put us in the position we're in now, presumably because he thought he was recruiting for a masters football team. 

Of course, he's not alone in this. Whoever sanctioned his signing sprees is equally culpable and time may tell moreso, after 2 years of abject failure and of rot setting in, what other team would sack that manager only to appoint the assistant? Maclean has literally not brought in any of his own back room team, just kept faith with what's already there. Mental really. 

I've no love for St. Johnstone but I genuinely feel for you. Clubs like us go through cycles of relative success and shit and you definitely have that feel of your previous missteps coming back to meet you just now.

We were same in 2014/15 and the full chain of events from Danny Lennon going to the replacement with Tommy Craig, the signings...everything just made us feel like that it was all about to catch up and though we fought it relatively valiantly, it just had that unshakable whiff about it and you guys do appear to be there just now.

[Kyle]

100% agree, we're going one way unless we make some really significant moves in the transfer market before the end of august and even then we might still be let down by a poor manager (Maclean might not be, but the start of this season really hasn't been encouraging). It's been a slow motion car crash for a while now, a lot of our fans have been in denial about it and still are, but it's been a steady track towards being a right good laugh for everyone else.

[Hoose Rice]

Re-sign Dee and get Drey punted.   Not rocket science and there's a start. 

[perthsaint1977]

Now I'm a huge spoony fan but is it not telling that he's not been picked up by any club and is a Training with Airdrie that maybe he's on a downward spiral also. 

Regarding Drey Wright, he was one of our better players last season especially when he was moved further forward. Should have been into double figures for goals. 

[RandomGuy.]

8 hours ago, DukDukGoose said:

So are you saying he should look to be solid first and then look to work towards the style of play he wants to play in future windows?

I think he wants to do that, but doesn't have the squad.

We have 3 CBs. Considine was finished last season, Gordon is a complete liability and had been for a while, and Parker is a kid who just got subbed off at half time against Stirling Albion.

7 hours ago, djchapsticks said:

£2m is wild.

My perception of St. Johnstone is that they are perpetually slow to make their move in the transfer market so it's pretty wild to think they've accrued a squad as big as 40 bodies. Add to this that when they do make moves, particularly in the last 12-18 months, the majority of their singings were early to mid 30s who you felt were maybe moving for a slightly lesser wage 

Davidson is the root cause of that. Given free reign to do what he wants so he chucked a fortune at folk. We've somehow still got Ali Crawford as one of our higher earners while Nicky Clark, whos starting to look like a perma-crock, will be one of our higher earners for a further 2 years still. 6 figures worth of transfer fees spent on folk who barely started a game and left for nothing (with a few needing paid off).

Easy for fans of other sides to not see why we're in this situation, but MacLeans done as well this Summer as he could considering the circumstances in terms of transfers.

Worst bit is when we go down youll get fans claiming its because we sacked Davidson, just blindly ignoring the fact hes absolutely fucked us for years. To many Saints fans this will be his legacy.

[Kelheart]

6 hours ago, Kyle said:

It wasn't just the signings themselves, we had a multitude of others already in the squad. 

We signed McGowan, Considine, Carey, Murphy and Clark who were all over 30. Only Murphy was a 1 year deal and he had an appearance based trigger. We already had Parish, Booth, Wotherspoon, Crawford, Murray Davidson, O'Halloran and I think May in that age bracket. We could literally field a functioning 11 of over 30s. (And all expensive no doubt too) 

My view is that Callum Davidson signed players to be short term fixes in his first window after we won the cups to keep us ticking over whilst he waited for his big move. Things quickly went to shit and that didn't materialise. We panicked in the January window 18 months ago but did enough to stay up. If Davidson had left at that point, we had some building blocks to put together a decent side, but we didn't and Davidson has put us in the position we're in now, presumably because he thought he was recruiting for a masters football team. 

Of course, he's not alone in this. Whoever sanctioned his signing sprees is equally culpable and time may tell moreso, after 2 years of abject failure and of rot setting in, what other team would sack that manager only to appoint the assistant? Maclean has literally not brought in any of his own back room team, just kept faith with what's already there. Mental really. 

Spurs 

[Moomintroll]

12 hours ago, SJFCtheTeamForMe said:

Wtf is going on here. 

It's Sunday.

[Jacksgranda]

9 hours ago, welldaft said:

 

Look forward to visiting Dens again. 

 

9 hours ago, Derry Alli said:

Clearly steaming, IMO.

I always preferred Dens to Tannadice.

Maybe I should have gone when steaming...

[PauloPerth]

I don’t have as much of an issue with signing over 30’s as others. I just want to see a good St Johnstone side.  It all depends how capable they still are.

We had a fair few older players in our successful Tommy Wright team; Mannus, Mackay, Frazer Wright, Anderson, Millar and Maclean. Davidson as well.  They were the backbone of the team.

It’s more who we signed, and for how long; Bryson had a horrendous injury record, was good for 24 games or so in the double season then barely played the following season through injury.  Crawford we had on loan for a couple of months and was terrible, so we offered him 3 years. Considine was out for a long time in his last season which is why aberdeen only offered him 1 year. Even MacPherson had a bad injury record when we signed him so no great shock he’s been unavailable a few times with us. Etc etc

We should have been blooding youngsters in the first team surrounded by experienced players to help them, instead we’re having to throw loads in at once and we’re paying the price.

We missed our opportunity to build in the summer after the double and have panic signed ever since.

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

I don’t have as much of an issue with signing over 30’s as others. I just want to see a good St Johnstone side.  It all depends how capable they still are.

Can only speak for myself, but my issue was the amount of over 30s and the fact we were giving them 2yr deals, rather than the quality of them. I could see why he signed virtually all of them but it was just too much in terms of numbers in the squad, and money spent in wages, to also allow a younger squad to come through.

It was always going to be tough for Davidson as he was always going to need to create a new "core", but as you say he missed the boat in his first Summer and was chasing his tail ever since. I think his plan was to go for younger ones this Summer with the ageing ones signed last Summer as a base, but you simply couldnt trust him to follow up on that once we started struggling again. 

I do worry MacLean is going too far in the other direction in terms of the overall squad, and still think someone like Wotherspoon shouldve been kept on for another season to help a transition, but signing players who are in their mid-20s with 100+ senior games when youve already got 5+ senior experienced players feels a really sensible approach to squad building to balance everything out.

[monkfish]

The players available yesterday should have been good enough to beat Stirling Albion. We just look a mess.

Liam Parker looked absolutely miles off it yesterday. Either MacLean can't see that, or he's playing him to prove a point, and in doing so contributed to putting the team's confidence at rock bottom. 

[RandomGuy.]

3 minutes ago, monkfish said:

The players available yesterday should have been good enough to beat Stirling Albion. We just look a mess.

Liam Parker looked absolutely miles off it yesterday. Either MacLean can't see that, or he's playing him to prove a point, and in doing so contributed to putting the team's confidence at rock bottom. 

I think he wanted to see how Parker got on in a competitive game, and he learned he couldnt trust him. Parker had been impressive in friendlies so far.

Yesterday was a complete dead rubber so better to f**k around and find out in that game than be unsure as the league starts and the window closes.

[Binos]

 

[PauloPerth]

7 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Can only speak for myself, but my issue was the amount of over 30s and the fact we were giving them 2yr deals, rather than the quality of them. I could see why he signed virtually all of them but it was just too much in terms of numbers in the squad, and money spent in wages, to also allow a younger squad to come through.

It was always going to be tough for Davidson as he was always going to need to create a new "core", but as you say he missed the boat in his first Summer and was chasing his tail ever since. I think his plan was to go for younger ones this Summer with the ageing ones signed last Summer as a base, but you simply couldnt trust him to follow up on that once we started struggling again. 

I do worry MacLean is going too far in the other direction in terms of the overall squad, and still think someone like Wotherspoon shouldve been kept on for another season to help a transition, but signing players who are in their mid-20s with 100+ senior games when youve already got 5+ senior experienced players feels a really sensible approach to squad building to balance everything out.

Last season should have been an opportunity to develop the team without undue pressure.  20th December we were 5th and playing okay but what followed and the inability to arrest the slide was criminal. As you say, there was little in Davidson’s previous signings to suggest we were going to see a successful rebuild.

My point about age is that I read a lot about players being the right profile etc if they are early to mid 20’s, presumably because there’s sell on value? But is that the case in reality?  Two year contracts pass by and if they’re very good they move on at the end of their deal. Rooney, McCart and to a lesser extent Hendry being examples.  

I just don’t see it being as important as it used to be.

Get what you are saying about Spoony, but I think it was time to go.  He’d contributed next to nothing (admittedly mostly not his fault due to injury) for 2 years since getting sent off v lask presumably on big wages. He is a legend at Saints, but his race was run. Look at other great Saints players we spent huge wages on to give them contracts and they hardly played in the last year or more.. Anderson, Murray Davidson, O’Halloran, Easton (?) and even a few of May’s contract extensions are questionable given his return compared to wages.

[FrankChickens1]

14 minutes ago, Binos said:

 

I thought that it was Parker that lost Spence for the first goal but was Gordon. 

I think Parker is getting really unfair treatment. Hope he gets a good loan and shows how good he is. 

[tree house tam]

Fans of clubs looking in, we knew this was going to happen 18 months ago, it's not news to us.

Steve Brown(known as bulletproof) took the huff while chairman, it's his dads club and he couldn't/didn't want to run it. He put a glorified salesman pal, who's only football credentials were he coached a couple of amateur teams in charge, he's known as Flax. Flax as all salesmen are, was a complete gobshite, who would tell you what he thought you wanted to hear, as well as being totally incapable of doing the actual job he blabbed his way into. Bulletproof, now concentrating on his 2 bob sparky business, which ironically his dad gave him too, tells Flax he's the man dealing with everything and has free reign to use the cash from player sales and our rainy day fund to let 'The Hobbit' (Davidson) build his dream team. Now the hobbit is a glorified cone collector and he's actually a good one of those, god I wished he'd stayed doing that. Anyway he doesn't have a clue about how to build a side so just picked a formation and stuck to it, shame he didn't have any players who could play it. The daft c**t couldn't even bring in players to play it. He brought in guys he had heard about, guys who he had played against, problem is he was in his 40s so most of these players were past it. He did supplement it with players who either played for Millwall or that their manager knew, which was nice. Showed he had loads of contacts in the game. Flax, wanting to please the hobbit, and with his new sense of worth and authority sanctioned everything the cone collector wanted and at any price. Saints were agents/clubs/players dream, the daft gruesome twosome have tag teamed the decades second most successful club. The fans have voiced their concerns, put banners up and even fucking boycotted. Eventually change has happened and I for one am fucking delighted.  

[Zamora Fan]

3 minutes ago, FrankChickens1 said:

I thought that it was Parker that lost Spence for the first goal but was Gordon. 

I think Parker is getting really unfair treatment. Hope he gets a good loan and shows how good he is. 

As a 16 year old (is that his age?) CB being chucked in for your first game you’d hope the experienced defender (and captain) next to you would talk you through the game and cover for any nervy/inexperienced moments … rather than look just as lost as you in a game against Stirling Albion. I feel for him and hope his confidence isn’t completely wrecked. 
 

‘LG’ becoming a serious issue in this team. 

[RandomGuy.]

25 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

My point about age is that I read a lot about players being the right profile etc if they are early to mid 20’s, presumably because there’s sell on value?

For that age group i think so.

I like seeing players signed between 22-27 who've played at least 100+ senior games before. Those players generally have something to them and chances are high you either get a good player for a bit, a fee, or they become your new backbone.

That should be the core of your squad supplemented with older players for guidance/security and younger players ready to replace them.

Edited July 30, 2023 by RandomGuy.