Coefficientwatch

[Ross.]

Makes sense.

[54_and_counting]

4 hours ago, Davie Bhoy said:

 

We're in the group stages earning €28m which tells me we weren't as piss poor in those qualifiers as the picture you're painting. Regardless, Rodgers had just taken over & the league season wasn't totally up & running so what you expecting. Bit of a moot point really.
 

 

no no, you said

12 hours ago, Davie Bhoy said:

 

I don't think there is a "very very long way to go". As I said elsewhere, I think if we're in any of the other groups this season, we'd be competing for a 2nd or 3rd spot but when you get hit with teams from La Liga, Premiership & Bundesliga in your group then you're up against it. If this side can at least give a decent account of ourselves with Rodgers at the helm for just a few months & only £4m spent, then I'm sure we'll be even more competitive next season.

 

competing for a 2nd or 3rd spot when you barely made it out of the qualifiers with a record of 3 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses, as for a decent account, the probable wdl record speaks for itself, why would you be more competitive next season as well? its not like celtic were up against giants in the qualifiers, you think the board will sanction major cash splash when you were one goal away from blowing a 3 goal lead and 28million quid against shite teams this season

[Davie Bhoy]

Do I need to spell it out to you. Apparently I do. New manager comes in and has qualifiers quickly thrust upon him as he's still trying to not only get to know his best side but he's in new players & have them get to know each other.

If we played those same teams just now I'd be confident we'd do a lot better than we did in the qualifiers. Although to give them credit, Hapoel Beer Sheva went to the San Siri and beat Inter Milan so it puts our result at home into perspective against them.

Why wouldn't we improve when the manager has had a full season at the club and will know what his full squad can offer him, what his best starting line up is and with them more aware of what he expects of them. Throw in the massive financial returns the club will have from this campaign which will help increase his budget then it'd be silly to suggest there would be anything other than an improvement.

[Ashman]

The second season could be trickier to BR.  There will be massive expectations , players in and out, the will be seen as a scalp in CL qualifiers , agents will stir things in need be , he will be mentioned for jobs in England.  

The key will be January window .  Celtic will need to buy in January to let players settle in for next July -and August .  The success of the season will depend of how these qualifiers go.  

 

[FairWeatherFan]

Qualifying is always going to be difficult. End of the day they won all 3 home games & the score draw away to Astana was hardly horrible. The one true black mark was the loss to the Imps. With that being a new manager's first competitive game in charge with a squad in transition, you would like to think that won't be happening again under Rodgers' reign.

They've currently got a puncher's chance of getting third this year. And third is something that Celtic can realistically achieve in most groups in the current CL format. As for competing for second place in CL groups. Both Celtic & Rangers have been able to get into the last 16 in unexpected circumstances in the past. It can certainly happen again.

[lionel hutz]

The key for Scotland next season, is getting Hearts, Aberdeen or Saints into the groups of the EL. If you look at a country like Belgium, who only get £17m in TV money each season, they have 5 teams in Europe right now. If Dundalk, Gabala and Qarabag can qualify for the EL, why can't our teams?

[Ross.]

1 hour ago, Marr1 said:

The key for Scotland next season, is getting Hearts, Aberdeen or Saints into the groups of the EL. If you look at a country like Belgium, who only get £17m in TV money each season, they have 5 teams in Europe right now. If Dundalk, Gabala and Qarabag can qualify for the EL, why can't our teams?

Agree with this to an extent. Dundalk have done very well on a small budget. Hearts and Aberdeen should be looking to get to the play off round at least, barring a horrendous draw.

[CityDave]

On 03/11/2016 at 14:06, 54_and_counting said:

no no, you said

competing for a 2nd or 3rd spot when you barely made it out of the qualifiers with a record of 3 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses, as for a decent account, the probable wdl record speaks for itself, why would you be more competitive next season as well? its not like celtic were up against giants in the qualifiers, you think the board will sanction major cash splash when you were one goal away from blowing a 3 goal lead and 28million quid against shite teams this season

Hapoel Be'er Shiva and Astana would humiliate the current Rangers team without really trying hard.

[RandomGuy.]

On 04/11/2016 at 09:02, Ashman said:

The second season could be trickier to BR.  

If he's even still at Celtic. Theres a reason he only accepted a one year rolling contract.

[CityDave]

On 04/11/2016 at 15:12, Marr1 said:

The key for Scotland next season, is getting Hearts, Aberdeen or Saints into the groups of the EL. If you look at a country like Belgium, who only get £17m in TV money each season, they have 5 teams in Europe right now. If Dundalk, Gabala and Qarabag can qualify for the EL, why can't our teams?

Dundalk entered at the Group stage after being knocked out of the Champions League. Quarabag also were knocked out of the CL and had only the play off round to get through, they would have been seeded as well. Gabala knocked out Lille and Maribor (Its well known now Scottish clubs can't beat Maribor over two legs) which is a real achievement for a small team who started in the first qualifier. I think they are the only surviving team from the first two rounds, I could be wrong I haven't checked absolutely everyone.

To achieve the group stages in most cases teams from the qualifiers usually have to get past a team which has dropped out of the CL. This seeding, its a loaded dice that works against the smaller teams from the smaller nations that have to qualify for the early rounds and for Scottish teams we don't come across as prepared enough for the early starts to the season, especially as our previous football seasons are very long.

As a Caley Thistle fan who saw my team play in European competition for the 1st time there are real pros and cons to it. Its all very well with the prestige of playing in the competitions but the short holiday after a very long season then going straight into competitive games really had a knock on effect on the whole of last season. Players who hadn't enough time to recover were fatigued, lots of injuries for a small squad. The Astra game cost us four or five players, one out for the season and then we lost more players in the following weeks as the league season got underway I would rather us focus on the Scottish season than European football.

I've always been of the view the longer a bigger Scottish team lasts in the European competitions the better they become relative to their own ability and who they are playing of course. Celtic over the last few seasons have been a good example, slow starters then improving as the opposition becomes harder.

I think the EL is a joke of a competition the way it is laid out right now, but if we want to do better as a nation in Europe we seriously need to look at shifting the start and finish of our season. But as I say I would rather us focus on the home front rather than 1 to 3 games in Europe that would cost us more instead of gaining any benefit from it.

 

[54_and_counting]

3 hours ago, CityDave said:

Hapoel Be'er Shiva and Astana would humiliate the current Rangers team without really trying hard.

And? The current rangers team arent spending close to 30mill on wages a year, spending millions on a manager and tossing 4mill on one player

 

[Ross.]

30 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

And? The current rangers team arent spending close to 30mill on wages a year, spending millions on a manager and tossing 4mill on one player

 

Which is why over 2 games Celtic have beaten all 3 sides.

[54_and_counting]

1 hour ago, Ross. said:

Which is why over 2 games Celtic have beaten all 3 sides.

Thats not the point, they got lucky in 2 of the 3 ties and new gaffer or not the loss to red imps was one of the moat embarrassing results in Scottish football history

The argument is that celtic have shown improvement this season, i say they haven't purely because they faced utter shite in the qualifiers instead of competent mobs that they have faced in previous years

[Ross.]

2 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Thats not the point, they got lucky in 2 of the 3 ties and new gaffer or not the loss to red imps was one of the moat embarrassing results in Scottish football history

The argument is that celtic have shown improvement this season, i say they haven't purely because they faced utter shite in the qualifiers instead of competent mobs that they have faced in previous years

I agree on Red Imps and have said so many a time on this site.

As for getting lucky, they were mostly comfortable against Astana, and over the 2 legs against the Israeli team they deserved the result. The biggest criticism v Be'er Shiva is that they didn't go into the second leg with a wider margin between the sides.

[54_and_counting]

7 minutes ago, Ross. said:

I agree on Red Imps and have said so many a time on this site.

As for getting lucky, they were mostly comfortable against Astana, and over the 2 legs against the Israeli team they deserved the result. The biggest criticism v Be'er Shiva is that they didn't go into the second leg with a wider margin between the sides.

Mostly comfortable? they were behind away from home and scored with one of their few chances, at home they relied on 2 penalties was it against astana

As for beer shiva, celtic shat the bed at home and nearly lost it, and away from home they were absolutely stinking and lucky not to go out, they were far from comfortable

Yes they got through, but against a half decent mob celtic would likely be playing europa league football the now, 

[Ross.]

8 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Mostly comfortable? they were behind away from home and scored with one of their few chances, at home they relied on 2 penalties was it against astana

As for beer shiva, celtic shat the bed at home and nearly lost it, and away from home they were absolutely stinking and lucky not to go out, they were far from comfortable

Yes they got through, but against a half decent mob celtic would likely be playing europa league football the now, 

They relied on two penalties against Astana but in the home game controlled most of the play. In the away leg Astana had most of the play but Celtic scored a well worked goal and weren't especially troubled.

Against Be'er Shiva Celtic should have won by more than a 3 goal margin in the first leg. With the exception of a 10 minute period where they did indeed shit the bed, they scored 5 and could have had a few more. In the second game, they were very poor but other than the missed penalty did not give away that many clear cut chances. They absolutely deserved to win it over the two legs.

The fact they struggled against those sides is an indication of regression when compared to 3 or 4 years ago, but the fact they got through suggests they have improved on the two seasons under Deila. The performances and results against Man City at home and Mönchengladbach away suggest they have improved further since the qualifiers.

No one is saying Celtic are anything like a top level team. They are not. But they are better than you are giving them credit for.

[lubo_blaha]

Agree with this to an extent. Dundalk have done very well on a small budget. Hearts and Aberdeen should be looking to get to the play off round at least, barring a horrendous draw.

Dundalk only got in because they dropped down from the CL qualifiers. They only got in by knocking out 2 clubs then losing in the next round.

Out of 96 teams that enter QR1, only 1 or 2 manage to qualify each season. Even once you get to the play-off round there are only 22 spots left and 15 Champions League clubs enter at that stage. The odds are firmly stacked against our clubs in the EL unfortunately.

[54_and_counting]

2 hours ago, Ross. said:

They relied on two penalties against Astana but in the home game controlled most of the play. In the away leg Astana had most of the play but Celtic scored a well worked goal and weren't especially troubled.

Against Be'er Shiva Celtic should have won by more than a 3 goal margin in the first leg. With the exception of a 10 minute period where they did indeed shit the bed, they scored 5 and could have had a few more. In the second game, they were very poor but other than the missed penalty did not give away that many clear cut chances. They absolutely deserved to win it over the two legs.

The fact they struggled against those sides is an indication of regression when compared to 3 or 4 years ago, but the fact they got through suggests they have improved on the two seasons under Deila. The performances and results against Man City at home and Mönchengladbach away suggest they have improved further since the qualifiers.

No one is saying Celtic are anything like a top level team. They are not. But they are better than you are giving them credit for.

craig gordon kept it to 1 in the away leg of astana, celtic could and probably should have been about 2 or 3 behind when they scored with their only chance, this was taken from the bbc report

Quote

 

As they often have, Celtic had their goalkeeper to thank for keeping the deficit to just one goal until Griffiths' leveller.

The Scotland international again produced save after save to help ensure Celtic are in the driving seat going into next week's second leg.

He somehow clawed away an awkward Azat Nurgaliyev chip after another Ambrose error, parried a ferocious 40-yard Twumasi drive, touched a dipping Nurgaliyev shot on to the crossbar and kept out a Kabananga effort with his legs.

the home leg, while celtic inevitably dominated the ball, they struggled in front of goal and required 2 penalties to see of the unseeded team

As for beer sheeva, both teams dominated their respective home ties, but the difference was that sheeva looked like scoring away from home given they managed 2 goals, celtic didnt look like repeating the feat and relied on keeping out the third goal

i think because of the 2 draws in the group stages celtic are being praised for their marked improvement when imo the reality is that they have and will always continue to rely on the luck of the draw to make the group stages, they were seeded in all 3 qualifying ties, and drew massive luck with the teams they drew, yet only won 3 of they games while losing two and drawing one,

Put it into perspective, celtics CL qualifying record LAST season was played 6, won 4, drew 1 and lost 2, they just lucked out that Molde were a better team in the final qualifying round and were able to overturn a first leg defeat, yet Deila was deemed a massive failure, Celtic spend more money this season and have a worse record but luck into qualifying and get praised

Edited November 7, 2016 by 54_and_counting

[54_and_counting]

f**k knows what happened there, stupid system , their record was 6,1,1 last season not 6,1,2 as i put and for some reason cannot edit

[Ross.]

15 minutes ago, lubo_blaha said:

 

Dundalk only got in because they dropped down from the CL qualifiers. They only got in by knocking out 2 clubs then losing in the next round.

Out of 96 teams that enter QR1, only 1 or 2 manage to qualify each season. Even once you get to the play-off round there are only 22 spots left and 15 Champions League clubs enter at that stage. The odds are firmly stacked against our clubs in the EL unfortunately.

I agree it is stacked against the sides coming in at the early rounds, but Dundalk have shown that it is possible to upset the odds. Granted, they only just squeezed past FH of Iceland, but they gubbed a fairly experienced BATE side, pushed Legia very close, got a credible draw in the Netherlands and what would be considered a good home win for any Scottish side bar Celtic in their match against Tel Aviv. They even kept a massive degree of respectability in their two defeats to Zenit.

It shows that it is absolutely possible for smaller clubs to punch above their weight, though it doesn't happen often.

From a Scottish POV, I think our best hope for another side qualifying is just to make sure they avoid Maribor.