Coefficientwatch

[HibeeJibee]

2008.

As a tournament it began in 1961-62, only a season after the Cup-Winners' Cup, as the International Football Cup. It actually had quite a modern format as we would think of it now: it opened with groupstages, before the domestic seasons began, followed by knockouts played during the season like the other European competitions. Some clubs entered both and if they made it out of the IFC groups they weren't allowed to play in both so had to withdraw. This caused problems, and from 1967 only the groupstages were played i.e. there were no knockouts and no winners! It had become heavily supported by European pools operators to provide competitive games for betting during July - so they wanted the groups to go on... "Intertoto" = "International Tote".

UEFA took it over in 1995, turned it into a qualifying competition for the UEFA Cup by adding knockouts with multiple 'finals' (2, 3 then 11) and made it straight knockout from 1998. In 2009 it was merged into the new Europa League.


British clubs never entered the IFC and seldom the Intertoto. Scottish entries as follows and certainly provide nothing to shout about:

1995-96 Intertoto Cup
(12 groups of 5 - winners + 4 best runners-up qualified for single-leg knockouts)
(2x winners of Semi-Finals qualified for UEFA Cup First Round)
25 Jun 1995 - LASK Linz 2-2 Partick Thistle
01 Jul 1995 - Partick Thistle 3-1 Keflavik
08 Jul 1995 - Metz 1-0 Partick Thistle
22 Jul 1995 - Partick Thistle 1-2 NK Zagreb
Partick Thistle finished 4th

2001-02 Intertoto Cup
(5 knockout rounds)
(3x winners of Finals qualified for UEFA Cup First Round)
16 Jun 2001 - Dundee 0-0 Sartid Smederovo
23 Jun 2001 - Sartid Smederovo 5-2 Dundee
Dundee were eliminated in R1

2004-05 Intertoto Cup
(5 knockout rounds)
(3x winners of Finals qualified for UEFA Cup First Round)
03 Jul 2004 - Hibernian 1-1 Vetra Vilnius
10 Jul 2004 - Vetra Vilnius 1-0 Hibernian
Hibernian were eliminated 2-1 on aggregate in R2

2006-07 Intertoto Cup
(3 knockout rounds)
(11x winners of R3 qualified for UEFA Cup Second Qualifying Round)
02 Jul 2006 - Hibernian 5-0 Dinaburg Daugvpils
08 Jul 2006 - Dinaburg Daugvpils 0-3 Hibernian
Hibernian won 8-0 on aggregate
15 Jul 2006 - Odense 1-0 Hibernian
22 July 2006 - Hibernian 2-1 Odense
Hibernian were eliminated on away goals in R3

2008-09 Intertoto Cup
(3 knockout rounds)
(11x winners of R3 qualified for UEFA Cup Second Qualifying Round)
06 Jul 2008 - Hibernian 0-2 Elfsborg
12 Jul 2008 - Elfsborg 2-0 Hibernian
Hibernian were eliminated 4-0 on aggregate in R2

Edited September 3, 2016 by HibeeJibee

[HibeeJibee]

As mentioned Scotland also had 1 place in the International Soccer League which ran from 1960 to 1965.

In 1960, 1961 and 1963 this went to the league runner-up (who was Kilmarnock on every occasion); in 1962 (Dundee) and 1965 (Kilmarnock) it went to the league champion, who entered it and the European Cup; in 1964 it went to Hearts, the only club in the top 6 not to have qualified for anything else.

It was prestigious particularly in the early years. In 1960 Kilmarnock made the Final.

http://www.rsssf.com/usadave/islii.html


Finally there was a brief experiment with an Anglo-Franco-Scottish Cup - actually two separate cups Anglo-French or Franco-Scottish - in 1960-61 and 1961-62.

These were neither groupstage or knockout tournaments - instead clubs played a single tie, and whichever country had the most wins were declared victors. Scotland won the first edition 3-1 but lost the second edition 2-1 (it could have been tied but Celtic failed to play Reims). These were the only "European" games ever played by Clyde or Third Lanark. Places were awarded to the 4 highest-placed clubs which hadn't qualified for the European Cup, Cup-Winners' Cup or Fairs Cup.

However in the first edition Ayr Utd weren't permitted to enter as they didn't have floodlights, and the next club down - Celtic - entered instead.

http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.uk/friendship-cup.htm

Edited September 3, 2016 by HibeeJibee

[SlipperyP]

On 9/3/2016 at 14:45, craigkillie said:

They theoretically could, but it would require Ludogorets to earn at least 3.5 points on their own.  That would be the equivalent of 7 wins.  They are in a Champions League group with Arsenal, PSG and Basel.

For next season, they only lose 0.750 pts while Scotland 4.300.  Is that not the points already gone?

[craigkillie]

The current table is this one, which contains the results from 2012/13 until the end of 2016/17.  This table will be used to determine the number of European places and the entry rounds for the 2018/19 Champions League and Europa League.

The points you are referring to are from the 2012/13 season.  These will drop off for next season's table, which will contain results from 2013/14 until 2017/18.  That determines the European places for the 2019/20 season.  Bulgaria are just ahead of us in that, but we have the remainder of this season and all of next season to overhaul them.

[thisal]

How many points did we lose last night?

[Mordecai]

That's us moved above Norway into 22nd in the rankings.

[wastecoatwilly]

9 hours ago, Mordecai said:

That's us moved above Norway into 22nd in the rankings.

and one more win takes us above poland

[Wilky1878]

How would a draw for Celtic make the coefficient look?

[tree house tam]

27 minutes ago, Wilkinson1998 said:

How would a draw for Celtic make the coefficient look?

Where they going to buy that from?

[Mordecai]

42 minutes ago, Wilkinson1998 said:

How would a draw for Celtic make the coefficient look?

It would add another 0.25 onto the total, so there wouldn't be any movement. A win or 2 draws would take us above Poland (if Legia continue to lose the rest of their fixtures) and it would also mitigate the loss of the points from the 12/13 season.

 

http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2017.html

[Davie Bhoy]

Where they going to buy that from?

oooops!

[tree house tam]

1 minute ago, Davie Bhoy said:

 

oooops!

 

I'll admit Celtics performances against Manchester City at home and Borrussia away have been a pleasant surprise. Still a very very long way to go for them to be a decent competitive side in Europe though. 

[Davie Bhoy]

I'll admit Celtics performances against Manchester City at home and Borrussia away have been a pleasant surprise. Still a very very long way to go for them to be a decent competitive side in Europe though. 

I don't think there is a "very very long way to go". As I said elsewhere, I think if we're in any of the other groups this season, we'd be competing for a 2nd or 3rd spot but when you get hit with teams from La Liga, Premiership & Bundesliga in your group then you're up against it. If this side can at least give a decent account of ourselves with Rodgers at the helm for just a few months & only £4m spent, then I'm sure we'll be even more competitive next season.

[54_and_counting]

4 hours ago, Davie Bhoy said:

 

I don't think there is a "very very long way to go". As I said elsewhere, I think if we're in any of the other groups this season, we'd be competing for a 2nd or 3rd spot but when you get hit with teams from La Liga, Premiership & Bundesliga in your group then you're up against it. If this side can at least give a decent account of ourselves with Rodgers at the helm for just a few months & only £4m spent, then I'm sure we'll be even more competitive next season.

 

Are you conveniently forgetting how piss poor celtic were in the qualifiers bar one game at home?  and even then they almost shat the bed that night also

Celtics euro record this season will likely finish

P12, W3, D3, L6, which ia shite given half the games they were seeded for in the qualifiers

[tree house tam]

18 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Are you conveniently forgetting how piss poor celtic were in the qualifiers bar one game at home?  and even then they almost shat the bed that night also

Celtics euro record this season will likely finish

P12, W3, D3, L6, which ia shite given half the games they were seeded for in the qualifiers

This. The thread is coefficient watch Davie. 2 Draws in the champions league group stages glosses over a lot of cracks in the qualifiers.

A lot of cracks Davie. 

As for the ifs and buts pish you're spouting, nonsense as usual.

[Davie Bhoy]

Are you conveniently forgetting how piss poor celtic were in the qualifiers bar one game at home?  and even then they almost shat the bed that night also

Celtics euro record this season will likely finish

P12, W3, D3, L6, which ia shite given half the games they were seeded for in the qualifiers

We're in the group stages earning €28m which tells me we weren't as piss poor in those qualifiers as the picture you're painting. Regardless, Rodgers had just taken over & the league season wasn't totally up & running so what you expecting. Bit of a moot point really.

This. The thread is coefficient watch Davie. 2 Draws in the champions league group stages glosses over a lot of cracks in the qualifiers.

A lot of cracks Davie. 

As for the ifs and buts pish you're spouting, nonsense as usual.

It glosses over nothing. The point being made is about the progression being made in such a short space of time. NOT how we were at the starting point.

[Ross.]

4 hours ago, tree house tam said:

This. The thread is coefficient watch Davie. 2 Draws in the champions league group stages glosses over a lot of cracks in the qualifiers.

A lot of cracks Davie. 

As for the ifs and buts pish you're spouting, nonsense as usual.

The draws and defeats in qualifying don't matter then. The bonus they receive for qualifying covers that. It would only have mattered had they gone out in the qualifying rounds. I think...

[Mordecai]

4 minutes ago, Ross. said:

The draws and defeats in qualifying don't matter then. The bonus they receive for qualifying covers that. It would only have mattered had they gone out in the qualifying rounds. I think...

Not entirely true. Celtic should be taking advantage of playing more games in qualifying by earning points against weaker teams. If they'd managed to win more games then we'd likely be above Poland at the minute.

[Ross.]

1 minute ago, Mordecai said:

Not entirely true. Celtic should be taking advantage of playing more games in qualifying by earning points against weaker teams. If they'd managed to win more games then we'd likely be above Poland at the minute.

I didn't realise that was the case. I was under the impression that upon qualifying, they received only the bonus points total and not the additional points won from any qualifying matches. Unless I am misreading this?

http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/tcoef2017.html

The only sides who have points in the qualification column are those who went out at that stage?

[Mordecai]

2 hours ago, Ross. said:

I didn't realise that was the case. I was under the impression that upon qualifying, they received only the bonus points total and not the additional points won from any qualifying matches. Unless I am misreading this?

http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/tcoef2017.html

The only sides who have points in the qualification column are those who went out at that stage?

 

That might be the case for individual club coefficients (although I didn't know this), but the country coefficient is a reflection of all results from Scottish teams in Europe. Celtic have contributed 9.5 points (including the 4 bonus points) to our overall tally of 16.5 which is divided by the number of teams involved (4). Of the 9.5, 3.5 points were gained during qualifying.

http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2017.html

The thing about the qualification games not counting for the club coefficient makes sense. They have 6.825 for this season (with the country contribution included), it just makes it more difficult for Celtic to increase their seeding to a pot 3 team.

http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2017.html

 

Also, cheers for that link - I've never seen that page before.