tirso Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Surely most folk whether silently or not see the problem with trans men in sport though eh?Do goodery gone way to far in my opinion. Which ends up with unrelated , real progressive stuff being questioned.Some of the dogma on both sides would be hilarious if not serious. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Khaki Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, tirso said: Surely most folk whether silently or not see the problem with trans men in sport though eh? Do goodery gone way to far in my opinion. Which ends up with unrelated , real progressive stuff being questioned. Some of the dogma on both sides would be hilarious if not serious. Of course. In US collegiate sports you see pre-op trans women totally destroying the biological women in track and field events. I don't really see that as any different to suddenly abolishing weight categories in boxing for example, then insisting that flyweight and lightweight boxers should just shut up and get on with the task of facing opponents twice their size. Patently unfair. The difference is, nobody in sports has their rights trampled all over if you ask them to compete in categories where the athletes are roughly biologically equal, and nor would they be made to feel diminished or belittled. The fact that collegiate sport has either failed to realise this, or more likely, caved into to typical college campus politics, is obviously leading to female athletes being left in the position of being completely unable to compete in their own disciplines. I've got to admit, I'm not familiar with the exact circumstance of how this has come to be, but if you asked me to speculate, I'd suggest that it's quite probable that the majority of people doing the most defending of the trans women, and the people in charge of making decisions about what it appropriate in collegiate sporting categories are very likely men, and that in this case, accusations of misogyny are more than likely absolutely fair. I don't think for a moment that the women athletes having their careers ruined would be expected to just accept it and get on with it if the people in charge actually cared about biological women. It really does scream of misogyny, disdain for the rights of women, and also has the stink of college absolutist politics about it. There's nothing about self-ID'd women using women's toilets that means the toilet ceases to function for biological women, so the two really don't bear up to any comparisons. Again, biological women are more than happy to share toilet facilities in their own homes with men, so arguing that trans women are 'men' and therefore you can't share public facilities with them is a nonsense, as is the line that goes 'well some biological men will use it as an excuse'. They're not in any need of an excuse as things stand. It's just a veil for bigotry. There's a massive difference between what's 'right' in moral terms when it comes to people's identity and civil or human rights, and what's 'fair' in sports when it comes to competitive categories. It's a nonsense that the former has evidently been abused and misused to dictate the latter. It doesn't do anything to help campaigns for rights either, in fact, I think it trivialises it and does a huge amount of harm to the case. In this particular instance, biological women's grievances are quite obviously legitimate, but it appears that good old male dominance and entitlement is, in fact, more than likely the reason why nobody appears to care. I genuinely believe that if trans men somehow acquired superhuman abilities as a result of self-ID, switched over to 'mens' events, and suddenly started blowing the USA's future male olympians away, it would get dealt with before you could say 'double standards'. Edited October 26, 2019 by Boo Khaki 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 11 hours ago, MixuFixit said: The problem is the subsequent sex crime, if it happens. The problem is not self ID. Self ID giving male rapists access to a building full of vulnerable women "not a problem". Fucksake. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 When did Baxter Parp become Supras? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Self ID giving male rapists access to a building full of vulnerable women "not a problem". Fucksake.What building? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: What building? Whatever womens prison male rapists are sent to await trial, I expect. Edited October 26, 2019 by Baxter Parp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Corton Vale? You cannot make major moral and legal decisions based on fear or with a handful of examples where things have gone wrong. People will always take the piss or play a system, the point is whether the system itself is worth having overall. The question should be is Self-ID worth having? I would certainly say yes, people deserve to live as they wish (to the extent that it does not harm the rights of others). Most of the main arguments against trans-rights (I.e attacks in toilets etc) are simply prejudice. Trans-people are not sex offenders waiting to happen. Rapists and sex-offenders already harm women in these areas, they do not wait for the law to give them permission to go in. The easy answer is obviously gender-neutral cubicles. We already have them in many places I.e most swimming pools I have been in have mixed changing, I go to cafes and pubs that have toilets that are shared, work has gender neutral toilets. They are already commonplace. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Jambomo said: The question should be is Self-ID worth having? I would certainly say yes, people deserve to live as they wish (to the extent that it does not harm the rights of others). Trans people can already live as they wish but let's make sure we introduce the possibility of violence or sexual assault against women for shits n' giggles. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Trans people can already live as they wish but let's make sure we introduce the possibility of violence or sexual assault against women for shits n' giggles.What on earth are you talking about? Who are you to say trans-people can live as they wish? They can’t and I suspect you have little idea of the prejudice against them.You are talking as, like I said, trans-people are simply offenders waiting to happen. They are not. Criminals already use these places to commit such crimes as I say, they aren’t looking for fucking permission to go in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Just now, Jambomo said: What on earth are you talking about? Who are you to say trans-people can live as they wish? They can’t and I suspect you have little idea of the prejudice against them. You are talking as, like I said, trans-people are simply offenders waiting to happen. They are not. Criminals already use these places to commit such crimes as I say, they aren’t looking for fucking permission to go in. No, I'm talking about male rapists sent to women's prisons. You would like me to be talking about trans folk as perverts as that would make it easy to demonise me but I'm clearly and concisely doing no such thing. Obviously as a minority trans people face unfair challenges and prejudice in their lives but that has f**k all to do with self-ID and everything to do with ignorance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 No, I'm talking about male rapists sent to women's prisons. You would like me to be talking about trans folk as perverts as that would make it easy to demonise me but I'm clearly and concisely doing no such thing. Obviously as a minority trans people face unfair challenges and prejudice in their lives but that has f**k all to do with self-ID and everything to do with ignorance.So society should make major decisions on how people live because the prison system made a controversial decision (which equally was not due to Self-ID but the prison system). That’s a completely backwards view.I am simply replying here to the things you wrote, not what I would like you to be saying. You insinuated earlier in the thread that self-ID would lead to an increase in offences against women, this one decision in the prison neither proves nor disproves that. There is no evidence it would do so in general. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jambomo said: There is no evidence it would do so in general. There is anecdotal evidence that it has already. What evidence is there that self-ID would reduce prejudice against trans folk? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Whatever womens prison male rapists are sent to await trial, I expect.High risk prisoners are kept apart from others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 There is anecdotal evidence that it has already. What evidence is there that self-ID would reduce prejudice against trans folk?I have not, and am not saying it will reduce prejudice against them. It won’t. It will however, allow them more easily to live as they wish to and to live as the gender they feel they should be. It’s simplifying an existing process. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: High risk prisoners are kept apart from others. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life Works a treat. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jambomo said: It will however, allow them more easily to live as they wish A statement that requires evidence, surely? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life Works a treat.Pretty sure thats an English prison? Self ID is a Scottish concept for this debate at least. I have faith that SPS have the right things in place to ensure they keep people who are vulnerable safe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life Works a treat. Apparently same sex prisoners do it too. Quite a lot apparently. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45499591 But no, transgender. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Just now, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: Pretty sure thats an English prison? Self ID is a Scottish concept for this debate at least. I have faith that SPS have the right things in place to ensure they keep people who are vulnerable safe. Please do show how high risk prisoners are treated differently in Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Jambomo said: Apparently same sex prisoners do it too. Quite a lot apparently. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45499591 But no, transgender. News for Jambono: 98% of sexual assaults are carried out by men. So let's chuck men into women's prisons. WCGW?! -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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