Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Musketeer Gripweed]

3 minutes ago, peasy23 said:

12 minutes ago, Musketeer Gripweed said:

We had three sub-contractors not turn up this morning citing childcare issues. To get infrastructure going again, the schools need to go back.

It's still the summer holidays, they wouldn't have been in this week under any circumstances.

It was a bullshit excuse, and I saw right through it, but it just highlighted the fact that it will get used even more in the coming weeks unless it gets nipped in the bud.

[Bairnardo]

They can make up for all of that when they're doing six day a week lessons in our treatment-stacked future, with any luck from the February break in 2021. The plain facts of that matter are that schools are in no way safe to be reopened on a 100% capacity basis like the government and parents are gunning for right now and so if we're still interested in following The Science then that shouldn't happen. 

And once again we return to, what if teachers dont want to and parents dont want kids doing 6 day weeks? You might not like it or be all indiganant about it, but firstly February is ambitious and there is still a significant chance of no effective vaccine, and also cramming a few extra lesson in doesnt address the whole of the issue in terms of the health and development of young people. Advocating that the schools stay off till a vaccine is found is absolute nonsense.

In terms of importance to the economy and overall wellbeing of the nation and it's people, schools are more important by some distance than anything that has been reopened so far with the only thing on an equal footing being the resumption of routine healthcare.

[craigkillie]

I find it astonishing that the same NS who promised to look at and learn from what was working and not working elsewhere is claiming to be completely unaware of how Stockholm has got to the position it has, yet knew all about an outbreak in an Abattoir in Gütersloz immediately.

There are two competing hypotheses here:

1) The Scottish government are indeed completely unaware of or are deliberately ignoring the amazing success Sweden has had throughout.

2) The Scottish government know what is happening in Sweden like they do in other countries, but their advisors have actually concluded that it's not the roaring success that you keep claiming it to be.

[Todd_is_God]

1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

There are two competing hypotheses here:

1) The Scottish government are indeed completely unaware of or are deliberately ignoring the amazing success Sweden has had throughout.

2) The Scottish government know what is happening in Sweden like they do in other countries, but their advisors have actually concluded that it's not the roaring success that you keep claiming it to be.

If 1 is true. That would be startling.

If 2 was true, then explaining why our results are better (they appear very similar) would settle the issue.

Dismissing it with an answer along the lines "oh I don't know, next..." is shocking, frankly.

[welshbairn]

Sweden urges employees to keep working from home throughout autumn, avoid public transport

Sweden's new coronavirus rule for restaurants, bars and cafes

Edited August 3, 2020 by welshbairn

[vikingTON]

25 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

And once again we return to, what if teachers dont want to and parents dont want kids doing 6 day weeks? 

Teachers (and support staff) don't seem to want to teach in a fully-occupied mess of a school from next week and they are absolutely right to state this. The thing is though, they don't get to have it both ways. Education is not like football: you can't just cancel or truncate a season because of the pandemic and forget about the lost games. You need to make up for the lost teaching time at some point when it is safe to do so. 

Teachers are employed by the state to provide a certain amount of teaching time to pupils over the period of the year to help them successfully reach their learning outcomes/qualifications. Given the unprecedented circumstances, that means having six days a week and fewer breaks in 2021 to make up for the hours that were not spent teaching and preparing from the staff, or learning from the perspective of the students. There really is no getting around that point, other than bleating to the SQA to make the exams easier and therefore about as useful to the current cohort of 15-18 year olds as a bust bookies slip. 

Parents' views should be absolutely irrelevant to this decision-making in the same way that they don't get to choose whether or not we have the five day a week system currently in place or indeed whether or not to send their kids to school at all. 

Quote

You might not like it or be all indiganant about it, but firstly February is ambitious and there is still a significant chance of no effective vaccine, and also cramming a few extra lesson in doesnt address the whole of the issue in terms of the health and development of young people. Advocating that the schools stay off till a vaccine is found is absolute nonsense.

I don't see how February 2021 is ambitious at all and the likelihood of there being no effective vaccine ever is in fact vanishingly small. This isn't HIV with some obscure, immune-beating infection mechanism: it's more or less a bog-standard respiratory virus. The health and development of young people below 18 is no more or less important than the health and development of people between 18 and 50 that has already been trashed to a greater or lesser extent for nearly the whole of 2020. The difference is that an indoor school setting is more dangerous by an order of magnitude and therefore should be last on the list to 'return to normal'. You shouldn't get to pick and choose when to follow The Science based on your own convenience and that certainly shouldn't be government policy. I believe we've been here before in March when they dithered over closing the schools and made a roaring c**t of the first spike in cases accordingly.

Quote

In terms of importance to the economy and overall wellbeing of the nation and it's people, schools are more important by some distance than anything that has been reopened so far with the only thing on an equal footing being the resumption of routine healthcare.

The economic argument is flawed because we're actually likely to enter a tailspin of activity and a glut of excess capacity and labour (ie unemployment) in the months to come. The idea that we need parents flocking back to their workplaces to Keep The Country Going is completely detached from the probable reality of the economy in, say, November.  Quite a few of them will in fact be able to devote 100% of their time to looking after kids whether the schools are open or not; others should be allowed the opportunity to take leave. There is not going to be the demand to justify this, never mind at the expense of the health and safety of people working in the education sector. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by vikingTON

[Gaz]

17 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

And once again we return to, what if teachers dont want to and parents dont want kids doing 6 day weeks? You might not like it or be all indiganant about it, but firstly February is ambitious and there is still a significant chance of no effective vaccine, and also cramming a few extra lesson in doesnt address the whole of the issue in terms of the health and development of young people. Advocating that the schools stay off till a vaccine is found is absolute nonsense.

In terms of importance to the economy and overall wellbeing of the nation and it's people, schools are more important by some distance than anything that has been reopened so far with the only thing on an equal footing being the resumption of routine healthcare.

I've said much, much earlier on the thread that I'd be happy to take extra classes at weekends.

There were quite a few bootlickers aghast at the suggestion that I'd want paid for it, though.

I've also said that I'd be happy in principle with a move away from traditional Monday to Friday 9-4 model, but logistically I can't see how it would work.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

What is all this pish about schools vs pubs? if you're going to be going to school then you shouldn't e in a pub unless I've got my sums very much wrong

[Gaz]

6 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

What is all this pish about schools vs pubs? if you're going to be going to school then you shouldn't e in a pub unless I've got my sums very much wrong

Give bartenders teachers' wages IMO

[Todd_is_God]

16 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Sweden urges employees to keep working from home throughout autumn, avoid public transport

Sweden's new coronavirus rule for restaurants, bars and cafes

I'm not sure what point you are making here. No one is suggesting Sweden has no restrictions or guidance, nor is anyone, despite BJK's protestations, advocating that for here.

The question is why have they achieved almost identical results without the months long blanket lockdown we had here, if we are to believe our reduction in cases, deaths etc is solely the result of such drastic measures.

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I'm not sure what point you are making here. No one is suggesting Sweden has no restrictions or guidance, nor is anyone, despite BJK's protestations, advocating that for here.

The question is why have they achieved almost identical results without the months long blanket lockdown we had here, if we are to believe our reduction in cases, deaths etc is solely the result of such drastic measures.

My point is that the restrictions haven't been a whole lot different from here, even if less of them were backed by law. The comparison should be with their Nordic neighbours who were more efficient than us with lockdown, and see how poorly they performed in comparison. Their economy hasn't gained any significant advantage either.

Edited August 3, 2020 by welshbairn

[Marshmallo]

Does The Science differentiate between the risks to 4-5 year olds in Primary One versus 16-17 year olds in Sixth Year? Or teachers in their 20s versus teachers in their 60s?

Schools going back may be the correct decision for a variety of reasons, but I wish they'd stop kidding everyone on that it's a risk based decision around the chances of spreading the virus. It's to placate parents and get more of them back out to work.

[Marshmallo]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

My point is that the restrictions haven't been a whole lot different from here, even if less of them were backed by law.

Agreed. Have said it before but the UK hasn't actually had a lockdown. People climbing mountains, shovelling in takeaway ice creams or the pozbairds of this world driving to Braehead from Cumbernauld cause he preferred the yoghurts they sell there is hardly a lockdown.

[Jacksgranda]

1 minute ago, Marshmallo said:

Agreed. Have said it before but the UK hasn't actually had a lockdown. People climbing mountains, shovelling in takeaway ice creams or the pozbairds of this world driving to Braehead from Cumbernauld cause he preferred the yoghurts they sell there is hardly a lockdown.

I think "coffee and cake" was the big attraction.

[Todd_is_God]

11 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

My point is that the restrictions haven't been a whole lot different from here, even if less of them were backed by law. The comparison should be with their Nordic neighbours who were more efficient than us with lockdown, and see how poorly they performed in comparison. 

They have though. What we have now is broadly similar, yes, but they did not have a 2½ month spell where literally nothing was open. 

We can't go back in time to change the past. But by acknowledging that closing everything is unnecessary, we can avoid doing so again.

As for comparing countries. We should ultimately hold off on definitively judging performance until we can compare all cause mortality / excess deaths at the end of winter / end of 2021

Edited August 3, 2020 by Todd_is_God

[Todd_is_God]

1 minute ago, Jacksgranda said:

I think "coffee and cake" was the big attraction.

Was it not a more exotic selection of vegetarian ready meals?

[Marshmallo]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

Was it not a more exotic selection of vegetarian ready meals?

That was someone going from Girvan to Ayr, and in fairness I think that was once the R rate dropped as opposed to screeching "AV GOAT A WIFE" while sitting in the wee seat in the trolley while the R rate was through the roof and people were dropping like flies.

[Gaz]

My favourite early-lockdown moment was yon Granny Danger responding to me asking him why it was necessary for both he and his wife to drive to the shops (only for one of them to stay in the car) by accusing me of being a VL with a fictitious wife and kids. Halcyon days

[Marshmallo]

1 minute ago, Gaz said:

My favourite early-lockdown moment was yon Granny Danger responding to me asking him why it was necessary for both he and his wife to drive to the shops (only for one of them to stay in the car) by accusing me of being a VL with a fictitious wife and kids. Halcyon days

Aye that's right. Codgers telling us we'd understand the need to sit in the car during a pandemic once we'd finally got some pussy.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

5 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Agreed. Have said it before but the UK hasn't actually had a lockdown. People climbing mountains, shovelling in takeaway ice creams or the pozbairds of this world driving to Braehead from Cumbernauld cause he preferred the yoghurts they sell there is hardly a lockdown.

The first few weeks everything was dead save for a few people out walking on nice days ,  by the end of april there was a combination of folk pushing the boundaries of what was already allowed and people starting to realise that no c**t was bothering to enforce it anyway. My employer gave me a letter to present to the police in the event of getting stopped on the way to work, I was never once stopped and asked where I was going in fact I barely even saw the polis.  By may the stay at home order had been widely abandoned .  As was discussed on this thread in april , a prolonged period of restrictions would just end up ebing ignored en masse anyway and our police don't have the manpower to stop it