Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[HibsFan]

7 minutes ago, Left Back said:

That’s an entirely different argument.

the CEO of AZ has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders.  He can’t stand up at the next AGM and say sorry lads, I spunked your money on building manufacturing facilities across Europe cos the EU said in passing they might place an order at some point in the future.  The order didn’t happen but morals and that eh.

Western governments across the world will claim (rightly or wrongly) that they are funding vaccine roll outs through existing international aid programmes.  Could they do more?  Almost certainly.

here’s a different perspective on it.  Without the west there would be no vaccine.  Does the developed world have a moral obligation to protect itself first in order to ensure it has the capability to protect the emerging nations?

God what a dull and limited imagination you must have.

It's a fucking global health crisis, you abandon said fiduciary responsibility in the name of fixing it for the benefit of the world.

If you're seriously still trying to secure #profit first and foremost in a time like this, then you should be up against a wall.

[ICTChris]

https://metro.co.uk/2021/01/28/covid-kills-covid-denier-who-refused-to-wear-mask-or-socially-distance-13980467/

Tragic case of a COVID conspiracy theorist who caught the virus and died.

The guys Twitter account is full of retweets of JHB, Paul Embery and John Pilger spouting lockdown and virus conspiracies. 

Reminds me of the many HIV denialists who died of AIDS. Eg - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(magazine) What a waste.

Edited January 29, 2021 by ICTChris

[madwullie]

1 hour ago, Elixir said:

So, about as effective as the best flu vaccines on the so-called 'escape mutant'. And of course, even those still testing positive in this arm of the trial no doubt had minor symptoms that put them nowhere near a hospital.

Think we can safely stick the fear mongering about variants ruining the vaccine rollout in the coming months firmly in the bin where they belong now.

I believe they have now published phase three data which actually showed it was more efficacious than the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, even though they used a similar vector. The Russian vaccine seems solid. I believe the Chinese/Sinopharm one is relatively gubbins compared to the rest.

Is it really fear mongering if they're reporting not so brilliant news in with brilliant news. Does that mean the brilliant news is happy clapping? 

Covid is more severe than flu, so is 60% efficacy for covid as good a result as 60% for flu? I don't know. 

Also, at the moment where they have data to show that these variants can impede efficacy of the vaccines really the correct time to be filing concerns about them in the bin? 15 cases of mild to moderate disease. 

Interesting to see it providing ~50% to hiv positive candidates. 

Also interesting that approx 1/3 of the candidates enrolled (but not included in the preliminary data) were seropositive, indicating they had previously been infected by an original strain of the disease, but upon infection during the trial, they were rattled by the new sa variant - showing that prior infection from covid doesn't necessarily provide natural immunity against the sa variant, so again, maybe not file that info in the bin quite yet? 

[NotThePars]

16 minutes ago, Left Back said:

That’s an entirely different argument.

the CEO of AZ has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders.  He can’t stand up at the next AGM and say sorry lads, I spunked your money on building manufacturing facilities across Europe cos the EU said in passing they might place an order at some point in the future.  The order didn’t happen but morals and that eh.

Western governments across the world will claim (rightly or wrongly) that they are funding vaccine roll outs through existing international aid programmes.  Could they do more?  Almost certainly.

here’s a different perspective on it.  Without the west there would be no vaccine.  Does the developed world have a moral obligation to protect itself first in order to ensure it has the capability to protect the emerging nations?

 

[cameron2000]

Vaccines efficacy rates are a good start point for effectiveness. However, I’d like to see some data from beyond that such as for those who it’s proven haven’t got Immunity from the vaccine, what percentage have become seriously ill with COVID. If that is very low it would be promising news to know that you’re way more likely to have a mild illness even if you’re not immune.

[Left Back]

13 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

God what a dull and limited imagination you must have.

It's a fucking global health crisis, you abandon said fiduciary responsibility in the name of fixing it for the benefit of the world.

If you're seriously still trying to secure #profit first and foremost in a time like this, then you should be up against a wall.

Do you hold shares in AZ or any of the other vaccine manufacturers?  What gives you the right to proclaim that shareholders in those businesses should donate their money to fixing the world?

many of these shareholders won’t even know they have shares.  It will be through their pension funds.  Your approach is therefore reducing pension income for many people which then causes its own problems further down the line.  The CEO of a company can’t ignore these things or he could (rightly) end up in jail.

stating that business should fund societal issues is naive in the extreme.

ETA.  At no point did I say business should be making a profit.  AZ (at the moment) have stated they won’t.  They shouldn’t make a loss though.  It should be funded through governments, not business.  
 

I’ve seen nothing to indicate the American drug companies are taking such a stance although I haven’t actually looked if they have or not.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Left Back

[D.A.F.C]

I’d feel ashamed to be a board member sitting at a meeting discussing how to make money or exclude people just now. I’m guessing that this is going on though. This is where governments could step in and create a worldwide fund and supply chain, guess what won’t happen.

The top echelons of business employ some people who will do anything to make money and progress their careers.

[Elixir]

15 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Is it really fear mongering if they're reporting not so brilliant news in with brilliant news. Does that mean the brilliant news is happy clapping? 

Covid is more severe than flu, so is 60% efficacy for covid as good a result as 60% for flu? I don't know. 

Also, at the moment where they have data to show that these variants can impede efficacy of the vaccines really the correct time to be filing concerns about them in the bin? 15 cases of mild to moderate disease. 

Interesting to see it providing ~50% to hiv positive candidates. 

Also interesting that approx 1/3 of the candidates enrolled (but not included in the preliminary data) were seropositive, indicating they had previously been infected by an original strain of the disease, but upon infection during the trial, they were rattled by the new sa variant - showing that prior infection from covid doesn't necessarily provide natural immunity against the sa variant, so again, maybe not file that info in the bin quite yet? 

The efficacy figures relate to who tested positive in the vaccine group versus the control group.

Ultimately the vaccine still prevented effectively 100% from severe disease, and 'natural' re-infections are also more mild or asymptomatic.

Boosters will likely be developed in any case to cover emerging 'variants'.

[Guest TheJTS98]

2 hours ago, D.A.F.C said:

I’d feel ashamed to be a board member sitting at a meeting discussing how to make money or exclude people just now. I’m guessing that this is going on though. This is where governments could step in and create a worldwide fund and supply chain, guess what won’t happen.

The top echelons of business employ some people who will do anything to make money and progress their careers.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171102-do-psychopaths-really-make-better-leaders

 

[SlipperyP]

6 hours ago, Snafu said:

It's typically German, they have a Plan B, and a Plan C if B doesn't work, probably a Plan D as well and so on.

What's our plan if Plan A fails?

As the Great British spirit of the second world war we will sit tight and take the shelling until the good old USA and Russia get their acts together and come and help us.

[dirty dingus]

People saying there should be no profit in a pandemic, was that not Bozos whole early stratagy? Let it rip throught the population take the collateral damage and once we had herd immunity we could thrive economically as other nations tried to fight it?

https://mondediplo.com/2020/04/02coronavirus-uk

[Steven W]

Encouraging news to have another vaccine hopefully on the go in a few months.

Struck me though, that the efficacy claims they make are surely based upon living with restrictions / social distancing etc. 

Will the efficacy numbers be quite so good were we acting like we were this time last year?

[Michael W]

Remember also that the efficacy percentages for Moderna and Pfizer did not account for asymptomatic infection either. AZ's numbers did, but no idea about the other vaccines with trial results (Sputnik, Sinovac & NovaVax). Therefore the efficacy of the first two is probably artificially high. 

The point I keep coming back to is that the efficacy is only one aspect of all this. AZ's headline figure is lower but no one was seriously ill or hospitalised. Similarly Pfizer/Moderna also showed that people did not become seriously ill if they did catch it - these vaccines do what they are most importantly needed to do and stop serious illness. They will prevent the healthcare system being overwhelmed. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Michael W

[Dunning1874]

7 hours ago, Left Back said:

Do you hold shares in AZ or any of the other vaccine manufacturers?  What gives you the right to proclaim that shareholders in those businesses should donate their money to fixing the world?

many of these shareholders won’t even know they have shares.  It will be through their pension funds.  Your approach is therefore reducing pension income for many people which then causes its own problems further down the line.  The CEO of a company can’t ignore these things or he could (rightly) end up in jail.

stating that business should fund societal issues is naive in the extreme.

ETA.  At no point did I say business should be making a profit.  AZ (at the moment) have stated they won’t.  They shouldn’t make a loss though.  It should be funded through governments, not business.  
 

I’ve seen nothing to indicate the American drug companies are taking such a stance although I haven’t actually looked if they have or not.

By the same token then, if they have no societal responsibility and the taxpayer should bear all the cost once they've successfully developed a vaccine, AZ and other pharmaceutical companies can give up all the public money shovelled at them for research, or at the very least governments should be granted shares to the value of their colossal funding.

[superbigal]

What the vaccine manufacturers could really do if this is not for profit, is to share the intellectual properties with other companies. Then manufacturing could spring up all over the world. Particularly in areas like Africa.
I do not really understand the secrecy around solving a global problem. Particularly with a low cost version such as AZ.

[Bairnardo]

What the vaccine manufacturers could really do if this is not for profit, is to share the intellectual properties with other companies. Then manufacturing could spring up all over the world. Particularly in areas like Africa.
I do not really understand the secrecy around solving a global problem. Particularly with a low cost version such as AZ.

This is the thing I have wondered about, and despite the obvious reluctance to do so from governments, I wonder why they havent went right, this is a global state of emergency, you hold the patents and whatever but until we have a grip on this, give the recipe to anyone who has a facility capable of making it.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Must be all sorts of IP shit wrapped up in vaccines tbf.

[vikingTON]

28 minutes ago, Snafu said:

What we are seeing with vaccine orders is vaccine hoarding, which is bizarre behaviour especially considering the worst offenders who condemned a number of the public for panic buying and stripping supermarket shelves pre lockdown.

Unless you're referring to the likes of the SG's piss-poor rollout exercise then that's not the case right now. Countries ordered well above their population total in futures because not all vaccine candidates would necessarily prove successful back when the bidding process began from the middle of 2020. That's the smart thing to do.

The only issue to be addressed with that is what happens now that vaccine success rate has proven to be high and there should be excess stock down the line. It would make sense for governments to waive their claims and let them be distributed straight to the developing world instead of being sent first to the UK to fulfill a deal, sit around for a while and then be shipped abroad again.

Edited January 29, 2021 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

9 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Must be all sorts of IP shit wrapped up in vaccines tbf.

'Mah intellectual property rights' while treating a global public health crisis is guillotine talk. 

[ICTChris]

Thread about the Novovax results.

Some potentially bad news about reinfection in the study.