Gorgie greatness Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 On 09/05/2020 at 16:04, red23 said: I think she's done a great job for hearts personally She did see through the construction of their main stand: How’s that new garden shed coming along? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthBank Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Yes but only if Hearts can 100% lay the blame on St Mirren.They have been doing that since '86. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydun Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, NorthBank said: 3 hours ago, Wilbur said: Yes but only if Hearts can 100% lay the blame on St Mirren. They have been doing that since '86. Not 100% though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloPerth Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 On 10/05/2020 at 03:31, JTS98 said: 1) Leaving out the fact that under Mercer Hearts were one of five Scottish clubs proposing the SSL in the early 90s. Why mention only Hearts? What about the Old Firm, Aberdeen, and Dundee United? St Johnstone and Hibs were thought at the time to be among the second phase of clubs to join the SSL, which would have taken it up to 8 teams from 5. So surely those clubs are also just as complicit? Why leave them out? In August 1992 Motherwell were also unveiled as members of the potential SSL. John Mackay's diary of the time confirms David Murray as the brains behind it and with at least seven other clubs on board. Why single out Hearts? 2) Surely all club chairmen 'had a hand' in the formation of the SPL. What's so special about Hearts? Which clubs were dragged in kicking and screaming? Were Hearts any worse than say, I don't know, Hibernian, who were on board with SSL and whose very own Lex Gold led the public push for both the SPL breakaway and later for an Atlantic Cup that would surely have been to the detriment of the smaller clubs in Scotland? Indeed, Roger Mitchell, speaking soon after getting his SPL job, specifically name-checked the chairmen of Aberdeen and St Johnstone as 'winners in life' and implied they were among the main pushers for this. Geoff Brown would later be an advocate of SPL 2 citing the need for 'a softer landing' from the SPL. St Johnstone had at that time just spent 7 years outside the top flight. Not a hint of self-interest there... St Johnstone weren't alone in lacking regard for the smaller clubs though, since of course in 2001 Livingston, Falkirk, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Ross County, Airdrie, Raith Rovers and Clyde had all threatened to resign from the SFL and abandon the smaller part-time clubs to their fate. We can only speculate that had St Johnstone been in the SFL at the time (they would be by the end of that season), they would have joined the 'rebels'. Different from Hearts because? It's also worth pointing out that even a decade after the SPL breakaway went through, the SFL clubs had failed to make the kind of progress that had been asked for. A review commissioned by the SFL itself in 2007 found it to be an out-dated organisation that ran its leagues at three times the relative expense of the comparable divisions in England, employing more than three times the staff to take care of 30 clubs than the Nationwide Conference did to look after 68. This suggests that the big clubs perhaps had a point when they said that the smaller clubs were too resistant to change. The creation of the SPL was obviously based on self-interest and a desire to make more money. But the idea that the smaller clubs were completely innocent victims unfairly persecuted is not quite true. Perhaps some of these clubs needed a rocket up the arse. The same old problems being in place a decade after the breakaway would suggest a deep-seated issue of incompetence, failure to adapt to the times, and/or a gravy-train culture. In an era where tv and commercial deals in foreign leagues were exploding, was it really completely unreasonable for the Scottish top flight clubs to wish to maximise revenue to compete in European competitions and as a commercial entity and to look to shake off what they saw, seemingly correctly, as poorly run operations further down the scale? There's a fair argument to be had either way there. Interesting that it only took four years for the next bunch of SFL clubs to try to do the same. 3) Well, it's a bit like it unless you consider that Hearts have over a century's worth of history of winning leagues, cups, competing in Europe etc, which almost all occurred before the era you refer to, while Gretna had achieved more or less nothing. Apart from that it's an excellent point. In 1990-91, St Johnstone were the newly promoted team to the 10 team premier league. As such, the expectation was that we'd be the whipping boys and go straight back down. Saints exceeded expectation and were top half around Christmas, though form tailed off. Half way through the season, clubs like Hibs, St Mirren and possibly Motherwell were in danger of relegation so started pushing for an expanded 12 team top league to come into place the very next season, thus meaning no relegation. St Johnstone chairman Geoff Brown acknowledged publicly an expanded top league would be very beneficial to Saints, but voted against it, stating that it was wrong to "move the goalposts during the season". In the end the vote went through regardless, with the premier league deadwood of the time getting their way. I'd imagine we've voted the way we have now for similar reasons; a change to the set up now motivated by the selfish self-interests of certain clubs is wrong. We have generally been for the greater good of the game, and will hopefully continue to be an example to other clubs on how to go about your business. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 Geoff Brown also backed the SPL2 on the grounds that the sponsorship money was increased for second tier sides, while St Johnstone were in the top tier. His point being the SFL was dying on its arse and unable to provide enough sponsorship money for full time clubs, while the SPL could attract more money and spread out the funds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 9 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: Geoff Brown also backed the SPL2 on the grounds that the sponsorship money was increased for second tier sides,1) while St Johnstone were in the top tier. His point being the SFL was dying on its arse and 2) unable to provide enough sponsorship money for full time clubs, while the SPL could attract more money and spread out the funds. 1) Having just been promoted back to it after 7 years, and obviously with the thought of being relegated again in mind. 2) Yeah, f**k the part-time clubs. Of course, St Johnstone's self-interest is in no way comparable to Hearts' self-interest. Completely different thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 Just now, JTS98 said: 1) Having just been promoted back to it after 7 years, and obviously with the thought of being relegated again in mind. 2) Yeah, f**k the part-time clubs. Of course, St Johnstone's self-interest is in no way comparable to Hearts' self-interest. Completely different thing. His proposal was for a 10 team top flight m8, as a time when Saints were the newest team in the division. Not entirely sure how a chairman willingly giving up promotion to benefit the top two tiers is remotely similar to Budge trying to expand a division to save Hearts. He made it clear he wanted the whole league under one umbrella with increased sponsorship, but the SFL were fighting that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: His proposal was for a 10 team top flight m8, as a time when Saints were the newest team in the division. Not entirely sure how a chairman willingly giving up promotion to benefit the top two tiers is remotely similar to Budge trying to expand a division to save Hearts. He made it clear he wanted the whole league under one umbrella with increased sponsorship, but the SFL were fighting that. He wanted St Johnstone to be guaranteed a slice of the money generated by the big clubs and to still have access to that cash even if they got relegated. To achieve that, f**k the small clubs. Of course, a completely different and more virtuous type of self-interest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG BEN Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 Very harsh to lump Ross County in with they 2 Can we keep Hearts and get rid of Celtic, Sevco and Ross County. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 Just now, BIG BEN said: Very harsh to lump Ross County in with they 2 It’s to save me from driving to Dingwall. No other reason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 3 hours ago, PauloPerth said: In 1990-91, St Johnstone were the newly promoted team to the 10 team premier league. As such, the expectation was that we'd be the whipping boys and go straight back down. Saints exceeded expectation and were top half around Christmas, though form tailed off. Half way through the season, clubs like Hibs, St Mirren and possibly Motherwell were in danger of relegation so started pushing for an expanded 12 team top league to come into place the very next season, thus meaning no relegation. St Johnstone chairman Geoff Brown acknowledged publicly an expanded top league would be very beneficial to Saints, but voted against it, stating that it was wrong to "move the goalposts during the season". In the end the vote went through regardless, with the premier league deadwood of the time getting their way. I'd imagine we've voted the way we have now for similar reasons; a change to the set up now motivated by the selfish self-interests of certain clubs is wrong. We have generally been for the greater good of the game, and will hopefully continue to be an example to other clubs on how to go about your business. The 90/91 restructure was to save Hibs who were in a perilous financial state at the time having just survived a takeover bid from then Hearts Chairman Wallace Mercer and looked certainties for relegation early in the season - after relegation was suspended Saints (the real ones) went on a spectacular run to snatch bottom spot from Hibs and make it all seem a bit farcical. Unfortunately for us it was part of a bigger malaise at the club at the time & we were relegated the following season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wonder Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I'm not Budge's biggest fan by any stretch and I've not read all this thread so my point may have already been made, but I'd definitely like her to move on but the time has to be right. Anyone thinking the middle of a pandemic when the club has no income is the time to hand over to the fans (our heidcase fans especially) is nuts. Get through this, make sure we still have a club and then it's time for change. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 As a side issue. Is the money available to pay her back for fronting up the takeover? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wonder Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Yes we've already raised the full amount. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tony Wonder said: Yes we've already raised the full amount. Fair enough, tell her she can't have it until you're back in the top division. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglehenry Posted May 12, 2020 Author Share Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said: Fair enough, tell her she can't have it until you're back in the top division. There is a clause in the deal where she can cancel it. For the life of me I can't remember on what terms either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamthebam Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 100 years ago.... Letter to "The Punter" June 1990. The more things change.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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