The Dundee United Thread 22/23

[mishtergrolsch]

At the end of the day, football under Mellon and Courts has been some of the worst we've seen. That is not in doubt.

I still think Mellon tried to attack initially, shat it after the pumping we got and decided the only way to get a decent points haul with a mostly championship level squad was to shitfest and hope for the best.

Courts hasn't got a clue how to batten down the hatches and weather the storm and is tinkering with systems and line ups and opting to keep using some of the same failed players.

Its a culmination of poor managers, poor players and poor tactics.

Who's in charge of all that again?

Edited February 2, 2022 by mishtergrolsch

[Dunfermline Arab]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, Courts can only use what he has at his disposal.

If he played young Arch, Deco and Mochrie week in, week out, people would be saying they're not good enough and would question why he wasn't playing Harkes and Pawlett.

Courts can do nothing about McNulty missing sitters every week, Fuchs dropping his head, Harkes scoring worldies one week and being a gangly mess the next.

I DO think that United completely failed to get Levitt on the ball last night and surely need to realise he's the one player that can pick a pass. 

Courts is desperate for a traditional winger, probably two. Niskanen is not that (although thinks he is)... I personally believe United have targets identified and maybe struggled to negotiate deals for them in January, but you can bet your house on there being several Summer signings.

[Mark Connolly]

The shite stuff has been over a similar level under both Mellon and Courts. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the decent stuff under Courts has been better, and happened more often, than the decent stuff under Mellon.

Still not great though, is it?

[Finn Seemann]

25 minutes ago, Dunfermline Arab said:

I've said it once and I'll say it again, Courts can only use what he has at his disposal.

If he played young Arch, Deco and Mochrie week in, week out, people would be saying they're not good enough and would question why he wasn't playing Harkes and Pawlett.

Courts can do nothing about McNulty missing sitters every week, Fuchs dropping his head, Harkes scoring worldies one week and being a gangly mess the next.

I DO think that United completely failed to get Levitt on the ball last night and surely need to realise he's the one player that can pick a pass. 

Courts is desperate for a traditional winger, probably two. Niskanen is not that (although thinks he is)... I personally believe United have targets identified and maybe struggled to negotiate deals for them in January, but you can bet your house on there being several Summer signings.

There will need to be several summer signings as current form is relegation form only potentially saved by early season form.  So next year it is going to have to be a complete rebuild again.  Let's hope we are not signing for the Championship...

[Finn Seemann]

22 minutes ago, Mark Connolly said:

The shite stuff has been over a similar level under both Mellon and Courts. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the decent stuff under Courts has been better, and happened more often, than the decent stuff under Mellon.

Still not great though, is it?

I think that is right, but it seems that the decent stuff is in the past.  Whether that is because of a honeymoon period or team's working us out, or something else, it can't really be argued.  We've been deplorable since October and without any real justification for optimism.  I remember the Mellon team going through games without a shot on target, but I think he actually sacrificed an attacking approach for survival - not sure what Courts' excuse is - other than Asghar hasn't given him the players he needs - although on looking at the window I'm not sure he actually knows what he needs (or has a say anyway).

[mishtergrolsch]

44 minutes ago, Dunfermline Arab said:

I've said it once and I'll say it again, Courts can only use what he has at his disposal.

If he played young Arch, Deco and Mochrie week in, week out, people would be saying they're not good enough and would question why he wasn't playing Harkes and Pawlett.

Courts can do nothing about McNulty missing sitters every week, Fuchs dropping his head, Harkes scoring worldies one week and being a gangly mess the next.

I DO think that United completely failed to get Levitt on the ball last night and surely need to realise he's the one player that can pick a pass. 

Courts is desperate for a traditional winger, probably two. Niskanen is not that (although thinks he is)... I personally believe United have targets identified and maybe struggled to negotiate deals for them in January, but you can bet your house on there being several Summer signings.

We already know Harkes and Pawlett are shite so why not actually use the young boys we are championing, giving them a chance to show if they are good enough? 15 mins here and there and the odd appearance at Ibrox isn't the best way to find out if a youngster is any good. Ironically the young guys did very well in the two arse cheeks games when thrown in. They need a run of games.

If they aren't good enough, why are we banging on about them? 

Who extended Harkes and Pawlett after toiling for years? Who re signed McNulty? Did the Analysis team not count how many sitters Clark and McNulty missed last season? These guys have been poor but who keeps playing them?

McNulty was gash last year but he's here again? If he was any good we'd not have needed to go out and sign Biamou AND spend 100k minimum on Watt.

Whos in charge? 

Edited February 2, 2022 by mishtergrolsch

[Dundee Hibernian]

5 minutes ago, mishtergrolsch said:

We already know Harkes and Pawlett are shite so why not actually use the young boys we are championing, giving them a chance to show if they are good enough? 15 mins here and there and the odd appearance at Ibrox isn't the best way to find out if a youngster is any good. Ironically the young guys did very well in the two arse cheeks games when thrown in. They need a run of games.

If they aren't good enough, why are we banging on about them? Just sign some decent players instead of continuing signing on pish players and wondering why we're still pish.

Who extended Harkes and Pawlett after toiling for years? Who re signed McNulty? Did the Analysis team not count how many sitters Clark and McNulty missed last season? These guys have been poor but who keeps playing them?

McNulty was gash last year but he's here again? If he was any good we'd not have needed to go out and sign Biamou AND spend 100k minimum on Watt.

Whos in charge? 

Harkes and Pawlett aren't 'shite': they showed good form earlier in the season, and both were reasonable last night. I'll agree I was baffled when Pawlett was resigned, given his injury record, but he has stayed fit most of this season. 'Just sign some decent players' makes it sound easy, but I'm unsure if any club in our spending position has done any better than us over the past few seasons. 

I honestly can't remember McNulty and Clark missing a number sitters last season, given the lack of chances created under Mellon. On the other hand, I wondered about Clark's contract extension, and bringing back McNulty was puzzling, but again, who should we have brought in? We've just signed Watt, paying a fee, and not many are complaining about this.

Scottish football at our level is poor quality, while supporter expectations are unrealistically high. That doesn't mean I didn't think last night's game was shite, right enough.

[ArabFC]

1 hour ago, Dunfermline Arab said:

Courts is desperate for a traditional winger, probably two. Niskanen is not that (although thinks he is)... I personally believe United have targets identified and maybe struggled to negotiate deals for them in January, but you can bet your house on there being several Summer signings.

Well it’s nice of him to let you know. Weird though how wide players have never been mention when positional priorities have been mentioned.

You can blame the players all you like, but after six months in charge I still have no idea what the hell Courts is trying to do and that leads me to doubt whether he even knows.

 

[ArabFC]

49 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Harkes and Pawlett aren't 'shite': they showed good form earlier in the season, and both were reasonable last night. I'll agree I was baffled when Pawlett was resigned, given his injury record, but he has stayed fit most of this season. 'Just sign some decent players' makes it sound easy, but I'm unsure if any club in our spending position has done any better than us over the past few seasons. 

I honestly can't remember McNulty and Clark missing a number sitters last season, given the lack of chances created under Mellon. On the other hand, I wondered about Clark's contract extension, and bringing back McNulty was puzzling, but again, who should we have brought in? We've just signed Watt, paying a fee, and not many are complaining about this.

Scottish football at our level is poor quality, while supporter expectations are unrealistically high. That doesn't mean I didn't think last night's game was shite, right enough.

Harkes is shite. I won’t deny there’s some ability in there, but as a rounded fitba player I don’t think he has a clue what he’s doing. Just because he suddenly got on the ball the last 10-15 mins when the Dundee players were fucked doesn’t make him reasonable - he was utterly anonymous for the first 75.

[Dundee Hibernian]

24 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

Harkes is shite. I won’t deny there’s some ability in there, but as a rounded fitba player I don’t think he has a clue what he’s doing. Just because he suddenly got on the ball the last 10-15 mins when the Dundee players were fucked doesn’t make him reasonable - he was utterly anonymous for the first 75.

It's a difference of opinion. Without his three goals we'd be deep in the mire. Would someone else have scored and/or contributed more in his position? Perhaps, but in fairness there doesn't appear to be a lot of goals in our team.

It's poor calling players 'shite', in my view. 

[Finn Seemann]

4 hours ago, ArabFC said:

Well it’s nice of him to let you know. Weird though how wide players have never been mention when positional priorities have been mentioned.

You can blame the players all you like, but after six months in charge I still have no idea what the hell Courts is trying to do and that leads me to doubt whether he even knows.

This is the real issue.  He clearly doesn't.

 

[Finn Seemann]

3 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

It's a difference of opinion. Without his three goals we'd be deep in the mire. Would someone else have scored and/or contributed more in his position? Perhaps, but in fairness there doesn't appear to be a lot of goals in our team.

It's poor calling players 'shite', in my view. 

I'm kind of with you on Harkes.  He is limited - he's a Livi, Dundee, Hamilton level player at best, but that is actually where we are.  We can want better, but there are no magic money trees and the grand conveyor belt of Academy talent hasn't produced anything yet that can displace him.  It's all rather sub-optimal.  Maybe that's it rather than shite, he's sub-optimal...

[mishtergrolsch]

11 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

It's a difference of opinion. Without his three goals we'd be deep in the mire. Would someone else have scored and/or contributed more in his position? Perhaps, but in fairness there doesn't appear to be a lot of goals in our team.

It's poor calling players 'shite', in my view. 

Ok. Harkes is stinking then. A passenger. For the amount of games he plays and times he gets on the ball he really dosent contribute anywhere near what he should. 

In fairness to Harkes (and Pawlett, Clark etc), its not his fault he's getting picked for the team or getting offered extensions. Thats the big issue really.

[Tannadeechee]

To me all the singling out of individual players is taking the issue away from, in my view, what is currently wrong with the playing side of the club.

League cup games, we were mostly awful, with a decent-ish attacking display (eventually) all be it against Elgin.

First game of the season, slow mind-numbing abject pish against Aberdeen.

Turned it around with a fantastic win against Rangers, then utter horseshit againsnt Ayr in the cup.

Picked up an away win in Perth, then meekly surrendered to Hearts at home, draw away at Paisley the the Derby win.

By this stage the Derby & Rangers wins bought Courts time, that and pockets of play where we could see what we were trying to do.

Hibs 2nd half was decent in the cup & Celtic was also decent. We then get 3 wins, including thhe excellent win away at Hibs where it looks like the attacking play is all coming together. After another draw we have the Saints loss that was a good performance with plenty of shots on target met by a Zander Clark master class. We could forgive this as we attacked well and created many opertunities

Then the problem game, the Hearts loss. We attacked and were in the game still at 3-2 where an equilizer was still a possibility. Then we fell apart.THIS is for me the turning point. We had an international break and game back against Aberdeen. We won but we were absolutely shit and fluked a win IMHO. We surrendered possession from the first minute, looked like we didn't want to attack unless it let the Dons in. It was a complete turn around from what we had been seeing previous and a return to the first league game.

It was obvious as hell Tam was spooked, tried to tighten us up, only attack if it was safe which completely nullified our team. Niskanen for example is quick and direct, this slow play doesn't suit, doesn't allow him to run onto the ball and run at the defenders. The midfield sit too deep to protect the defence which invites the opposition on and means we can't win 2nd balls when it is invariably launched after passing it seems side to side 10 times and ignoring at least 3 runs from those in front. We stopped closing down, stoppped putting the opposition under any sort of pressure at all. We also played with all the intensity of a training game.

 

The next games all continued in the same manner including the utter embarrassment of the Celtic game where we provided perfect impressions of training dummies.

Other than the COVID hit team against Rangers we have not had a good performance yet. He has changed tactics after 1 real setback, but is persisting with the, clearly obvious, poor football, shit-festing, beaten before we start, detrimental to our squad, losing mentality tactics game after game. Is this the way he wants to play football, evidenced by the first game against Aberdeen, and the change was forced on him, and he thought after our decent points all he could return to it? He was an analyst, we have analysts, what are they being paid for? You don't need to be an analyst to see current "tactics" don't work, and where the problems lie! Is he stubborn, over his head, panicked and looking for points here or there, or all of the above?

I want him to do well, but patience is starting to run out.

 

TL:DR Give Courts a slap to bring him back to reality and change bloody tactics

Edited February 3, 2022 by Tannadeechee

[Gibby82]

16 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said:

To me all the singling out of individual players is taking the issue away from, in my view, what is currently wrong with the playing side.of the club.

League cup games, we were mostly awful, with a decent-ish attacking display (eventually) all be it against Elgin.

First game of the season, slow mind-numbing abject pish against Aberdeen.

Turned it around with a fantastic win against Rangers, thrn utter horseshit againsnt Ayr in the cup.

Picked up an away win in Perth, then meekly surrendered to Hearts at home, draw away at Paisley the the Derby win.

By this stage the Derby & Rangers wins bought Courts time, that and pockets of play where we could see what we were trying to do.

Hibs 2nd half was decent in the cup & Celtic was also decent. We then get 3 wins, including thhe excellent win away at Hibs where it looks like the attacking play is all coming together. After another draw we have the Saints loss that was a good performance with plenty of shits.on target by a Zander Clark master class. We could forgive this as we attacked well and created many opertunities

Then the problem game, the Hearts loss. We attacked and were in the game still at 3-2 where an equilizer was still a possibility. Then we fell apart.THIS is for me the turning point. We had an international break and game back against Aberdeen. We won but we were absolutely shit and fluked a win IMHO. We surrendered possession from the first minute, looked like we didn't want to attack unless it let the Dons in. It was a complete turn around from what we had been seeing previous and a return to the first league game.

It was.obvious as hell Tamnwas spooked, triied to tighten us up, only attack if it was.safe which completely nullified our team. Niskanen for example is quick and direct, this slow play doesn't suit, doesn't allow him to run onto the ball and run at the defenders. The midfield sit too deep to protect the defence which invites the opposition on and means we can't win 2nd balls when it is invariably launched after passing it seems de.tomside 10 times and ignoring at least 3 runs from those in front. Plwe stopped closing down, stoppped puttingthe opposition under any sort of pressure at all. We also played with all the intensity of a training game.

 

The next games all continued in the same manner includding the utter embarrassment of the Celtic game where we provided perfect impressions of training dummies.

Other than the COVID hit team against Rangers we have not had a good performance yet. He has changed tactics after 1 real setback, butnis persisting with the, clearly obvious, poor football, shit-festing, beaten before we start, detrimental to our squad, loosing mentality tactics game after game. Is this the way he wants to play football, evidenced by the first game against Aberdeen, and the change was forced on him, and he thought after our decent points all he could return to it? He was an analyst, we have analysts, you don't need to be an analyst to see current "tactics" don't work, and whhere the problems lie? Is he stubborn, over his head, panicked and looking for points here or there, or all of the above?

I want him to do well, but patience is starting to run out.

 

TL:DR Give Courts a slap to bring him back to reality and chamge bloody tactics

Agree with this. Though the turning point was more likely the St Johnstone home defeat when he went all McNamara and fucked about with a settled, successful team. Has been tinkering ever since and it shows.

[Finn Seemann]

52 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said:

To me all the singling out of individual players is taking the issue away from, in my view, what is currently wrong with the playing side.of the club.

League cup games, we were mostly awful, with a decent-ish attacking display (eventually) all be it against Elgin.

First game of the season, slow mind-numbing abject pish against Aberdeen.

Turned it around with a fantastic win against Rangers, thrn utter horseshit againsnt Ayr in the cup.

Picked up an away win in Perth, then meekly surrendered to Hearts at home, draw away at Paisley the the Derby win.

By this stage the Derby & Rangers wins bought Courts time, that and pockets of play where we could see what we were trying to do.

Hibs 2nd half was decent in the cup & Celtic was also decent. We then get 3 wins, including thhe excellent win away at Hibs where it looks like the attacking play is all coming together. After another draw we have the Saints loss that was a good performance with plenty of shits.on target by a Zander Clark master class. We could forgive this as we attacked well and created many opertunities

Then the problem game, the Hearts loss. We attacked and were in the game still at 3-2 where an equilizer was still a possibility. Then we fell apart.THIS is for me the turning point. We had an international break and game back against Aberdeen. We won but we were absolutely shit and fluked a win IMHO. We surrendered possession from the first minute, looked like we didn't want to attack unless it let the Dons in. It was a complete turn around from what we had been seeing previous and a return to the first league game.

It was.obvious as hell Tamnwas spooked, triied to tighten us up, only attack if it was.safe which completely nullified our team. Niskanen for example is quick and direct, this slow play doesn't suit, doesn't allow him to run onto the ball and run at the defenders. The midfield sit too deep to protect the defence which invites the opposition on and means we can't win 2nd balls when it is invariably launched after passing it seems de.tomside 10 times and ignoring at least 3 runs from those in front. Plwe stopped closing down, stoppped puttingthe opposition under any sort of pressure at all. We also played with all the intensity of a training game.

 

The next games all continued in the same manner includding the utter embarrassment of the Celtic game where we provided perfect impressions of training dummies.

Other than the COVID hit team against Rangers we have not had a good performance yet. He has changed tactics after 1 real setback, butnis persisting with the, clearly obvious, poor football, shit-festing, beaten before we start, detrimental to our squad, loosing mentality tactics game after game. Is this the way he wants to play football, evidenced by the first game against Aberdeen, and the change was forced on him, and he thought after our decent points all he could return to it? He was an analyst, we have analysts, you don't need to be an analyst to see current "tactics" don't work, and whhere the problems lie? Is he stubborn, over his head, panicked and looking for points here or there, or all of the above?

I want him to do well, but patience is starting to run out.

 

TL:DR Give Courts a slap to bring him back to reality and chamge bloody tactics

Good post.  As a football fan (and if you were a neutral) I loved the Tynecastle game.  For me we went about it in exactly the right way.  We were close to them if i remember rightly in terms of league position at the time and it was positive to take the game to them.  I think it was OK to underestimate them, as i underestimated them.  They are a good side.  They are clearly third best in the league and maybe better if Rangers don't sort themselves out.  All we needed to do after that game was tighten things up a bit against better teams - not go all defence first and nothing going forward.  Jambo and hibee fans i know really praised United for the approach in both games.  I thought we'd turned a corner.  We need to get back to that approach and not be so scared.  So we lost at Tynecastle, not an unusual thing for any United team through the years, but we entertained, scored the best goal and could easily have won it with a bit of luck - I'd rather go along and watch that than what is currently being served up.

[kdyteejay]

7 hours ago, Finn Seemann said:

Good post.  As a football fan (and if you were a neutral) I loved the Tynecastle game.  For me we went about it in exactly the right way.  We were close to them if i remember rightly in terms of league position at the time and it was positive to take the game to them.  I think it was OK to underestimate them, as i underestimated them.  They are a good side.  They are clearly third best in the league and maybe better if Rangers don't sort themselves out.  All we needed to do after that game was tighten things up a bit against better teams - not go all defence first and nothing going forward.  Jambo and hibee fans i know really praised United for the approach in both games.  I thought we'd turned a corner.  We need to get back to that approach and not be so scared.  So we lost at Tynecastle, not an unusual thing for any United team through the years, but we entertained, scored the best goal and could easily have won it with a bit of luck - I'd rather go along and watch that than what is currently being served up.

He’s doing exactly what his predecessor did and look how that ended. I wish him well but I am already resigned to not going to Perth on Saturday nor going next week and I’m a season ticket holder.

[Junior_Arab]

15 minutes ago, kdyteejay said:

He’s doing exactly what his predecessor did and look how that ended. I wish him well but I am already resigned to not going to Perth on Saturday nor going next week and I’m a season ticket holder.

Yeah, this is my feeling too. Couple of poor results then shits the bed and goes defensive. Except he’s not as good at that as Mellon was. But it shouldn’t really surprise anyone that there are such marked similarities to last season in our tactics - was tactical analysis not a major part of Courts remit last season? He presumably had a fair bit of input on that side of things then. 

[Accent-Unknown]

4 hours ago, Junior_Arab said:

Yeah, this is my feeling too. Couple of poor results then shits the bed and goes defensive. Except he’s not as good at that as Mellon was. But it shouldn’t really surprise anyone that there are such marked similarities to last season in our tactics - was tactical analysis not a major part of Courts remit last season? He presumably had a fair bit of input on that side of things then. 

Courts was involved in the tactical side of the academy to my knowledge, wasn't involved in the first team before this season.

[Biscuits]

As someone who has personal experience of a kidney transplant I’d just like to wish Kevin McDonald all the best. Hope it works out for him at United [emoji106]