Queen of the South v The Caley

[Distant Doonhamer]

21 minutes ago, virginton said:

How does Queens' current system negate Dobbie or other attacking players? From the performance this evening the problem wasn't that you were packing players behind the ball or playing with the handbrake on. You simply don't have the required ability in the middle of the park or across your back four (less so left back but not immune) to win the ball, keep the ball, or keep weans out of a close. 

It's an all too easy cop out to endlessly blame the systems when you're in all probability just getting diminishing returns up top and have been weak in most other areas of the pitch for several years.

You make some very fair points there and there's no doubt we are a very poor side.  No argument there.

However how  we set up currently gives us next to no chance of getting the best out of Dobbie IMHO. 

Johnston has us set up in a way which seems to get the best out of virtually nobody.  Many of those who have the dubious pleasure of watching us on a regular basis feel the same way.  Totally agree re our lack of ability in midfield and in the back 4 (less so LB as you say) but we compound that by isolating a guy who would be more effective with Dobbie playing off a striking partner.  

Edit to add I'd agree it's likely we're getting a diminishing return from Dobbie, he's 38 today.  We're still not getting the best out of him currently though.

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Distant Doonhamer

[Skyline Drifter]

23 minutes ago, palmy_cammy said:

I’d be interested in a comparison of goals scored by Dobbie under Naysmith and goals scored by him under Johnston.

It’s a long list of failings, but one of his biggest has to be his complete inability to get the most out of the greatest player to have played for the club.

He's 38 today. I'm a huge Dobbie fanboy, he's by an absolute mile the best player I've seen at the club in my lifetime, but the notion that the only reason he's not getting dozens of goals a season is the set up the last two managers have used is just nonsense. He's still a very good player at this level of course and things like his reverse pass to set up our first goal v Alloa are magical but he is very obviously not quite the striker he was. I know he's bordering on being a deity with us but even he is human and age is catching up on him.

[Distant Doonhamer]

He's 38 today. I'm a huge Dobbie fanboy, he's by an absolute mile the best player I've seen at the club in my lifetime, but the notion that the only reason he's not getting dozens of goals a season is the set up the last two managers have used is just nonsense. He's still a very good player at this level of course and things like his reverse pass to set up our first goal v Alloa are magical but he is very obviously not quite the striker he was. I know he's bordering on being a deity with us but even he is human and age is catching up on him.

Age is beginning to catch up with him, no doubt but the current set up absolutely doesn’t give him the best chance to perform. He looks a forlorn figure much of the time.

That said I’m not sure anyone is saying the recent set ups are the only reason for his diminishing returns but plenty of us think they’re a factor nonetheless.

[palmy_cammy]

5 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

He's 38 today. I'm a huge Dobbie fanboy, he's by an absolute mile the best player I've seen at the club in my lifetime, but the notion that the only reason he's not getting dozens of goals a season is the set up the last two managers have used is just nonsense. He's still a very good player at this level of course and things like his reverse pass to set up our first goal v Alloa are magical but he is very obviously not quite the striker he was. I know he's bordering on being a deity with us but even he is human and age is catching up on him.

All the more reason to do everything possible to accommodate him. He couldn’t do the isolated lone striker role in his 20s so he sure as hell isn’t going to when he’s pushing 40.

“He’s getting on a bit what are we meant to do?” is exactly the pathetic loser mentality I’d expect from Johnston though.

An ageing Dobbie is still a huge asset and comfortably still our best player.

[Monkey Tennis]

7 hours ago, virginton said:

How does Queens' current system negate Dobbie or other attacking players? From the performance this evening the problem wasn't that you were packing players behind the ball or playing with the handbrake on. You simply don't have the required ability in the middle of the park or across your back four to win the ball enough, keep the ball enough or keep weans out of a close enough to compete over 90 minutes. There were plenty of opportunities for the forward players to link up in good spaces but they simply failed to do enough to test Ridgers.

It's an all too easy cop out to endlessly blame tactical systems when in all probability you're just getting diminishing returns from a declining talisman up top and have been predictably weak in most other areas of the park for several years.

I'm afraid this is spot on.

Our players aren't good enough.

[PearceDuff CF]

6 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm afraid this is spot on.

Our players aren't good enough.

The players are not good enough ,neither are the management .

They have the tactical nous of a brick , but without the solidity .

Relegation is a certainty , recruitment has been terrible . 

[TheScarf]

10 hours ago, THEHonestman1910 said:

Inverness look good going forward. They don't seem to be missing White and Walsh that much.

We won't miss Jordan White one iota. Walsh has a fantastic delivery on him but like his almost namesake Sean Welsh, is made of glass. 

[Guest Flash]

8 hours ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

Age is beginning to catch up with him, no doubt but the current set up absolutely doesn’t give him the best chance to perform. He looks a forlorn figure much of the time.

That said I’m not sure anyone is saying the recent set ups are the only reason for his diminishing returns but plenty of us think they’re a factor nonetheless.

I would suggest trying 3-5-2 but we only have 2 CBs on the books. Plus the only possible RWB would be Gibson and he couldn’t last 90 mins in that role, even if could make a half decent job of it to begin with. And the midfield players are far too easy to play through anyway, so changing the formation wouldn’t help with that. We must have the softest set of players in the division. Not a good plan when aggression in this league goes quite a long way. 

[Otis Blue]

So what did last night tell us then that we didn't already know .....

- ICT were always likely to be a step too far for us (as I mentioned earlier going by our relative performances v Raith) - check

- Wee JR can spot a decent player and put together a more than capable side at this level - check

- ICT probably have a budget that supports players with generally more technical ability and pace - check

- Our defence is pedestrian at best (young Maxwell aside) - check

- Our midfield has no dig and little end product - check

- Sad to say (totally idolise the guy) but not surprisingly the Dobbmeister's best days are behind him - still produces moments of class now and again but defenders rob him fairly easily now - check

- Our squad is largely assembled from lower leagues, and it shows (but that of course is driven mainly by our budget) - check

- Our budget this season is probably very low/very prudent/sensible  (granted I don't know) and probably dictated by Covid-19 and no fans in stadium income - check

- The "quality" sides in the Championship (ie Hearts, ICT, Raith, Dunfermline and maybe Dundee if they get their sh*t together) are out of our reach points wise - check

- Our only realistic probability of taking points this season is from Alloa and Arbroath, with perhaps a sniff at taking occasional points from Morton and Ayr - check

- That David Rae (despite being stereotyped by the media) nevertheless is a guy who is genuine and really loves his club - check

So in summary, nothing much that we didn't already know.

[Monkey Tennis]

I'm not going to pretend that our midfield does display loads of dig.  That's not nearly as big a problem, however,  as the absence of quality.

I'm really not convinced that David Rae is the victim of any media stereotyping which Implies he has no love for the club.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Monkey Tennis

[Q0S-RUSH]

17 hours ago, Flash said:

We just need a keeper, some defenders, some midfield players a striker and we’ll be fine.

And a manager

[Q0S-RUSH]

15 hours ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

Hearts away next. Excellent news.

Same sentiment if it was Arbroath or Alloa.

[Rjc-1988]

I would suggest trying 3-5-2 but we only have 2 CBs on the books. Plus the only possible RWB would be Gibson and he couldn’t last 90 mins in that role, even if could make a half decent job of it to begin with. And the midfield players are far too easy to play through anyway, so changing the formation wouldn’t help with that. We must have the softest set of players in the division. Not a good plan when aggression in this league goes quite a long way. 

I think you have hit the nail on the head - we are far too easy to play through. The Championship stereotypical central midfielder is a real battler, who keeps the shape, fights for everything and can hopefully play a bit. McKee can play but he isn’t interested in any of the ugly stuff. Pybus for me is a player out of his depth at this level. McCabe can play but is similar to McKee and looks to hate the dirty side.Ironically a Darren Lyons would have been a good retain for us at the type of budget we have.

I agree we are very soft now - even big Obileye with all his physical presence looks as if he would rather pick a clever pass than go and win a “must make 50:50”.As others have said we don’t have too many cards to play but Nortey in CM may be worth a go. I have said it repeatedly but we have no meaningful on-field leadership - everything is so passive and lacking in urgency when things go wrong. Our survival would appear to depend on how bad Alloa and Arbroath are compared to us but I think their squads have a lot more fight than we have.

[SUPERSOUTH]

14 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

He's 38 today. I'm a huge Dobbie fanboy, he's by an absolute mile the best player I've seen at the club in my lifetime, but the notion that the only reason he's not getting dozens of goals a season is the set up the last two managers have used is just nonsense. He's still a very good player at this level of course and things like his reverse pass to set up our first goal v Alloa are magical but he is very obviously not quite the striker he was. I know he's bordering on being a deity with us but even he is human and age is catching up on him.

He needs proper support and the manager needs to play a system that suits.... What a shame for a player like Dobbie to get dragged down by a very inept manager...... It must be so frustrating..... The recruitment by John Robertson compared to Alan Johnston is night and day with what will be very similar budgets...... 

Edited December 5, 2020 by SUPERSOUTH

[Skyline Drifter]

14 minutes ago, SUPERSOUTH said:

 with what will be very similar budgets...... 

[Distant Doonhamer]

He needs proper support and the manager needs to play a system that suits.... What a shame for a player like Dobbie to get dragged down by a very inept manager...... It must be so frustrating..... The recruitment by John Robertson compared to Alan Johnston is night and day with what will be very similar budgets...... 

No way will the budgets be similar. [emoji50]

[Otis Blue]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm not going to pretend that our midfield does display loads of dig.  That's not nearly as big a problem, however,  as the absence of quality.

I'm really not convinced that David Rae is the victim of any media stereotyping which Implies he has no love for the club.

Perhaps my poor wording in my post MT but I think you're putting 2 and 2 together there and getting 5.  I wasn't trying to say that the media were implying that DR has no love for the club.  How could they, it's clear as day he loves his club.  I think my point was that the media like to take advantage of the easy/lazy journo opportunity and roll out the slightly eccentric old fermer runs fitba club routine.  That said, I get that it was on the back of a retro piece on the 2008 cup final so to that extent it fitted in well.  But they could just as easily have interviewed Billy Hewitson and asked about the challenges of running a provincial full-time championship club in the middle of an unprecedent pandemic.  The DR piece just irked me a bit because its how the central belt thinks of Queens ..... "hicks from the sticks". - I know, I live and work in the central belt these days.  I've no issue with DR - think he's a great guy and Queens have been lucky to have him around.

[Otis Blue]

42 minutes ago, SUPERSOUTH said:

..... The recruitment by John Robertson compared to Alan Johnston is night and day with what will be very similar budgets...... 

 

26 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

This, absolutely this ....... and of course SD will have a much better clue here than most ....... for all that AJ never really impresses me as a manager/coach, it's as clear as night and day that he's been dealt a pretty weak hand in terms of budget this season ........ and that will be his Get Out of Jail Free card at the end of the season ........ whether that card has any value left by the end of the season only time will tell.

[JessieField]

One up front at home (Dobbie) puts us up against it right away. I'd like to see Goss or West with Shields start up front and Dobbie playing behind them. Fitzpatrick right wing, Gibson  on the left wing and stop the suicidal passing around the back which just draws the opponents onto us.

[Skyline Drifter]

3 hours ago, Otis Blue said:

So what did last night tell us then that we didn't already know .....

- ICT were always likely to be a step too far for us (as I mentioned earlier going by our relative performances v Raith) - check

- Wee JR can spot a decent player and put together a more than capable side at this level - check

- ICT probably have a budget that supports players with generally more technical ability and pace - check

- Our defence is pedestrian at best (young Maxwell aside) - check

- Our midfield has no dig and little end product - check

- Sad to say (totally idolise the guy) but not surprisingly the Dobbmeister's best days are behind him - still produces moments of class now and again but defenders rob him fairly easily now - check

- Our squad is largely assembled from lower leagues, and it shows (but that of course is driven mainly by our budget) - check

- Our budget this season is probably very low/very prudent/sensible  (granted I don't know) and probably dictated by Covid-19 and no fans in stadium income - check

- The "quality" sides in the Championship (ie Hearts, ICT, Raith, Dunfermline and maybe Dundee if they get their sh*t together) are out of our reach points wise - check

- Our only realistic probability of taking points this season is from Alloa and Arbroath, with perhaps a sniff at taking occasional points from Morton and Ayr - check

- That David Rae (despite being stereotyped by the media) nevertheless is a guy who is genuine and really loves his club - check

So in summary, nothing much that we didn't already know.

Largely fair. I wouldn't say we can't compete with Raith and I imagine the budgets are not that different (not sure though). Raith are promoted with momentum and doing well. I also don't think we should be starting inferior to Morton or probably in the medium term Ayr though they've had a couple of really successful seasons which will have helped them. I had thought ICT would come back to the pack a bit this season but looking at them last night it looks like Robertson has worked his magic again. I liked the look of their bench more than their starting team before kick off last night but they were young, quick and hungry and gave us a chasing. Robertson is head and shoulders the most effective manager working at this level at the moment and is unlucky not to have had a better job offer. He's probably happy where he is though.

11 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

Perhaps my poor wording in my post MT but I think you're putting 2 and 2 together there and getting 5.  I wasn't trying to say that the media were implying that DR has no love for the club.  How could they, it's clear as day he loves his club.  I think my point was that the media like to take advantage of the easy/lazy journo opportunity and roll out the slightly eccentric old fermer runs fitba club routine.  That said, I get that it was on the back of a retro piece on the 2008 cup final so to that extent it fitted in well.  But they could just as easily have interviewed Billy Hewitson and asked about the challenges of running a provincial full-time championship club in the middle of an unprecedent pandemic.  The DR piece just irked me a bit because its how the central belt thinks of Queens ..... "hicks from the sticks". - I know, I live and work in the central belt these days.  I've no issue with DR - think he's a great guy and Queens have been lucky to have him around.

I didn't see the game on tv (though saw a bit of the Rae interview). Thought it was a lazy filler to be honest from the BBC. The game was 12 years ago and had no relevance to an Inverness game. Davie loves it though and milks it.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Skyline Drifter