Burnieman Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 2 minutes ago, craigkillie said: 20 years ago you'd have said "can you imagine an SPFL club dropping into Junior/East of Scotland/Highland League football", but it has basically happened several times now and the world didn't collapse in on itself. If you are not good enough to play in your league, you have to be prepared to drop down to the one below and everything that comes with that. Nobody has went from SPFL to Junior football. Everyone in Junior football has has to become a Senior club. Dropping between tiers in Senior football isn't the issue here. Also, there's a place for "recreational football" where 11 guys and a bag of strips on a school pitch can play the game without being in any "system" apart from their local ammy league. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Just now, Burnieman said: Nobody has went from SPFL to Junior football. Everyone in Junior football has has to become a Senior club. Dropping between tiers in Senior football isn't the issue here. Also, there's a place for "recreational football" where 11 guys and a bag of strips on a school pitch can play the game without being in any "system" apart from their local ammy league. Yes, I'm aware of that, but clearly the Lowland League didn't even exist 20 years ago so my post was representative of what constituted the top level of non-league football at that point. "Senior" football isn't magically different from "Junior" football just in the same way that it isn't magically different from amateur football. We need to be getting rid of these distinctions, it's happened to an extent at the top end of non-league football and it's natural that it extends to the bottom now. If a team can't cut it on the pitch then "oh but the guys in the league below don't have as nice blazers as us and some of the oiks don't even have a stadium" shouldn't wash. If you don't want to be playing at that level of football, then be good enough on the pitch to not have to play at that level of football. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Just now, craigkillie said: Yes, I'm aware of that, but clearly the Lowland League didn't even exist 20 years ago so my post was representative of what constituted the top level of non-league football at that point. "Senior" football isn't magically different from "Junior" football just in the same way that it isn't magically different from amateur football. We need to be getting rid of these distinctions, it's happened to an extent at the top end of non-league football and it's natural that it extends to the bottom now. If a team can't cut it on the pitch then "oh but the guys in the league below don't have as nice blazers as us and some of the oiks don't even have a stadium" shouldn't wash. If you don't want to be playing at that level of football, then be good enough on the pitch to not have to play at that level of football. I know all that. But there is a marked difference between Amatuer football which is mostly played on park or school pitches with virtually no teams having a ground to speak of, and Junior football where everyone mostly did. There has to be a bottom rung somewhere, and there's no reason why that rung isn't the bottom of Senior football. It's not a closed shop, anyone can apply to join (which is what these clubs still have to do to join the WoS weven if they are members of the SAFA) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 2 hours ago, glensmad said: There has been a number of enquiries over the course of this season about joining the WoSFL. It would not be good practice for these clubs to be named on here. Nor would I expect you to. This is a general question, not directly at you GM, is the suggestion that the ONLY route into the WoSFL would be via the amateur ranks then? If so would clubs have to work their way through the leagues to gain access? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 3 minutes ago, jimbaxters said: Nor would I expect you to. This is a general question, not directly at you GM, is the suggestion that the ONLY route into the WoSFL would be via the amateur ranks then? If so would clubs have to work their way through the leagues to gain access? Success on the park isn't a part of the decision making process. Although we all know a bias will be still be there. South of Scotland is still there as a pyramid league that takes clubs from the West of Scotland area. Which could then lead to them ending up in the WoSFL. I don't really have a problem with the idea of joining an amateur league. A random upstart application can hardly be taken seriously. Even the likes of Edusport/Caley Braves started as an amateur team. Youth clubs already have shown various ways of entering the pyramid: Mergers, player pathway agreements, flags of convenience to access Development league. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 (edited) I agree that it doesn't make sense to force all new clubs to go through amateur football first. For some it might work well to build up a club from amateur level, for others it's too low a level to start. If we compare it to England, there are plenty of amateur leagues in the pyramid, but it's possible to apply to start at a higher level than the absolute bottom in your region, which goes as far down as tier 20 in some parts of the country. Clubs who plan to go semi-pro straight away could apply to start at the lowest level in the National League System, which is tier 10 (step 6) all over the country now. That is indeed what happened to phoenix/re-formed clubs like AFC Wimbledon, AFC Chester, Macclesfield, Darlington, Bury, Hereford and so on (some started at tier 9/step 5 like Wimbledon but at the time that was the lowest level in the NLS in their region). There are also a number of clubs that aren't phoenix clubs / (claimed) re-starts but started as a fully new club semi-pro on step 6 straight away, one of the best known of those is FC United of Manchester but there are plenty more. With some of these clubs there were already issues when they restarted in that they took far more fans to away games than the host clubs could handle or that they were too good for that level so completely romped the league. Forcing such clubs to start at the absolute lowest level in their area would just be madness and make that far worse. A good example of that actually happened in Germany some 20 years ago. Lokomotive Leipzig reformed after bankruptcy and were forced into the absolute lowest level in their area. They absolutely destroyed all opposition, winning everything and recording wins with more than 20 goals difference a few times. Opponents had to scramble for grounds to play the games against Lokomotive Leipzig as they generally played at simple pitches without any spectator facilities that couldn't handle the expected crowds. After that first season, they were quickly allowed 2 tiers higher than the tier they were actually promoted to. And even then they again won that league with ease, although the scorelines weren't as crazy. They got promoted another few times and have since settled in tier 4, the highest regional level in Germany. I'm more than happy for a route to exist through amateur football to the pyramid. Either with amateurs being formally part of the pyramid but with a different status like in England or with amateur leagues being separate like they are now with the possibility to apply to higher leagues. But it's not an appropriate route for every club. Edited March 6 by Marten 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Bobley Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 A lot of ‘what’s the point in needing to go amateur first’ comments. What is the alternative? 19s and 21s now fall within the SAFA, so are classed as amateur. If not part of the SAFA, where do they go/what do they do prior to applying for (and being accepted into) the WoS? Is the suggestion to apply for the WoS when you’re 18s/19s then hope that you’re accepted by the time your players are now too old to play in those age groups? What is the stop gap if you’re not accepted? A genuine question and not one to ruffle anybody’s feathers. More questions than answers in respect of not joining amateur leagues. A lot of snobbery about amateur but you’d probably find that the top 20 amateur teams in the West would hold their own in Division 4. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 With the 80 club limit and a more or less "closed door" to new clubs entering the WoS don't ne too surprised if some clubs lose patience and take the SoS route into the Pyramid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basile Boli Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 On 09/03/2024 at 08:10, Brad Bobley said: A lot of ‘what’s the point in needing to go amateur first’ comments. What is the alternative? 19s and 21s now fall within the SAFA, so are classed as amateur. If not part of the SAFA, where do they go/what do they do prior to applying for (and being accepted into) the WoS? Is the suggestion to apply for the WoS when you’re 18s/19s then hope that you’re accepted by the time your players are now too old to play in those age groups? What is the stop gap if you’re not accepted? A genuine question and not one to ruffle anybody’s feathers. More questions than answers in respect of not joining amateur leagues. A lot of snobbery about amateur but you’d probably find that the top 20 amateur teams in the West would hold their own in Division 4. Nobody can give a decent answer arguing against the SAFA route, it’s “just because”. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Bobley Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 2 hours ago, Dev said: With the 80 club limit and a more or less "closed door" to new clubs entering the WoS don't ne too surprised if some clubs lose patience and take the SoS route into the Pyramid. Definitely a good shout for Ayrshire based teams, but don't think I can see a world where teams from North and South Lanarkshire are travelling away down to Dumfries and Galloway every second week. I suppose it's not completely out the question, mind you, but I think it's unlikely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dev said: With the 80 club limit and a more or less "closed door" to new clubs entering the WoS don't ne too surprised if some clubs lose patience and take the SoS route into the Pyramid. There should be no closed doors in the Pyramid, leagues should always be open to new applicant clubs. The SoS was a viable route whilst the LL was not at capacity. Now that it is, there's really no reason why a club in Glasgow or North Ayrhire would ever consider joining. Edited March 13 by Burnieman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) On 09/03/2024 at 08:10, Brad Bobley said: A lot of ‘what’s the point in needing to go amateur first’ comments. What is the alternative? 19s and 21s now fall within the SAFA, so are classed as amateur. If not part of the SAFA, where do they go/what do they do prior to applying for (and being accepted into) the WoS? Is the suggestion to apply for the WoS when you’re 18s/19s then hope that you’re accepted by the time your players are now too old to play in those age groups? What is the stop gap if you’re not accepted? A genuine question and not one to ruffle anybody’s feathers. More questions than answers in respect of not joining amateur leagues. A lot of snobbery about amateur but you’d probably find that the top 20 amateur teams in the West would hold their own in Division 4. Let's just deal with "what's the alternative". Does there need to be an alternative? prospective clubs carry on as they are, which may already be in amateur football, or it may be in youth football. It may also be youth football morphing into amateur if they want their oldest team to keep going beyond U19/20/21. If these clubs harbour any ambitions on joining the Pyramid then they take steps towards meeting the requirements, and then apply. That equally applies to a brand new club which doesn't currently exist (although I doubt there will be many). There is no need to force them down a particular path, wait an indeterminate amount of time for a vacancy, and even then still have to apply with no guarantee of success. It all seems such a pointless exercise. Open the WoSFL to more than 80 clubs is the answer, if you're looking for an alternative. Edited March 13 by Burnieman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 The WoS taking on Threave from the SoS then closing the door to any new team in their actual area is a bit questionable. They are the only bottom step league in the country to stop taking new applications 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Feet Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Are there any noises around interested amateur clubs stepping up? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 The amateur leagues in the WoS area should be split into regions. Ayrshire, East and West, draw a line roughly up the Clyde to Rutherglen and go straight up. Then have some sort of playoff to decide the overall champion. Anyone that wants to play Region wide (and commit to travelling all season!), should have an option to join the WoS at any point if they meet requirements and not just "promise" to meet requirements 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 1 hour ago, Crazy Feet said: Are there any noises around interested amateur clubs stepping up? Craiglang Auld Team reportedly thinking about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josuke Higashikata Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) Made the mistake of checking the Scottish Junior Football Pictures page on Facebook. Holy crap, there's folk genuinely preferring the Ayrshire and Central Leagues there. Like being back at a Hampden meeting in 2017. Better start printing those black and white programmes. And cramming fifteen matches into two and a half months. Edited March 13 by Josuke Higashikata 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNU_Linux Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 41 minutes ago, Josuke Higashikata said: Made the mistake of checking the Scottish Junior Football Pictures page on Facebook. Holy crap, there's folk genuinely preferring the Ayrshire and Central Leagues there. Like being back at a Hampden meeting in 2017. Better start printing those black and white programmes. And cramming fifteen matches into two and a half months. Feel like shit just want the Evening Times Cup back x 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 5 hours ago, Crazy Feet said: Are there any noises around interested amateur clubs stepping up? On 06/03/2024 at 07:40, glensmad said: There has been a number of enquiries over the course of this season about joining the WoSFL. It would not be good practice for these clubs to be named on here. Pretty sure St Pat's are one that still have an interest after missing out last year. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 4 hours ago, Josuke Higashikata said: Made the mistake of checking the Scottish Junior Football Pictures page on Facebook. Holy crap, there's folk genuinely preferring the Ayrshire and Central Leagues there. Like being back at a Hampden meeting in 2017. Better start printing those black and white programmes. And cramming fifteen matches into two and a half months. Unfortunately that's the attitude of a surprising number of supporters at our level still. I don't think a lot of traditional supporters are particularly enamoured with the new clubs like Gartcairn, St Cadocs and Drumchapel who play on 4g and I can see their point as they can spend a relative fortune on players and have paying away supporter numbers in single figures. I do think that feeling is probably shared by some committees and why WOSFL is now a closed shop until a team is promoted to Lowland League as I get feeling teams like Port Glasgow, Girvan and Kello are dreading the Fourth Division next season and teams don't want another big spending St Cadocs or Drumchapel that may be the difference between their team being in Premier or First Division or Third or Fourth Division. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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