ayrmad Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 minute ago, madwullie said: What is stopping unionists boycotting this? What any ref needs is legitimacy. Maybe if we were sitting at 65%+ support this would be doable, but hovering around 50? And how are we getting to 65%+ with 35% hardcore NO? If nowt happens of substance this time independence is over for a while as the nose holders are only giving her 1 more vote under sufferance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 28 minutes ago, BFTD said: Yeah, pretty much that. You see it so often, and stated with such conviction, that I get the feeling some folk don't want to state what their alternative is because they know what the reaction will be. Yeah an excellent post by @HTG. I’m sure there would be some who would be happy with glorious failure but the future of our country is too important. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 12 minutes ago, ayrmad said: 4. Was a bigger, ate our cereal. 8. Totally ignores Covid. Wasn't intentionally ignoring Covid but Sturgeon has managed it better than Johnson albeit within the framework of a 4 nations approach (even if the staunch believe otherwise). But Covid is another reason not to rush to a referendum. Aye, folk might think (and be correct in thinking) that Scotland would have handled Covid better as an independent country but once it kicked in, a referendum during the worst of it was never on the cards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 22 minutes ago, Stinky Bone said: This could have been an alternative, it has been about for a while and seems better than having no plan. But I think there is a plan. If any of these elements in your image above are challenged - and they would be - and overruled, where does that leave Scotland. I don't believe there is an appetite for UDI. There may be among a hard core but I can't see it passing in Scotland or internationally until or unless existing processes have been worked through. That's my perspective and I accept It's different from yours - we'll maybe find out who is right in time. But I think your route is better adopted once we're down the line a bit. Before we get there, I wouldn't be completely astonished by Johnson suspending Holyrood. Which would be an absolute gift. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 I like the idea of recalling MPs It would be beyond a democratic joke if the Scottish elections are fought on a section 30 and a majority of independence parties are returned yet its denied.Also, the public don't fully understand our election system...if SNP return 52% on FPTP all MSPs would probably be SNP..then something would have to give. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, HTG said: Wasn't intentionally ignoring Covid but Sturgeon has managed it better than Johnson albeit within the framework of a 4 nations approach (even if the staunch believe otherwise). But Covid is another reason not to rush to a referendum. Aye, folk might think (and be correct in thinking) that Scotland would have handled Covid better as an independent country but once it kicked in, a referendum during the worst of it was never on the cards. I'm not suggesting a referendum should have taken place, this is hardly the right time to ask people to vote for a referendum but you've got to play the hand you're dealt. Personally I thought Nicola was way out with asking for a S30 when she did, can't remember exactly why as I've had other things that occupied my mind since then but do remember thinking the timing was wrong, walking away with barely a shrug was very very poor IMO, in the real world you're done when you're bluff has been called so badly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 55 minutes ago, ayrmad said: And how are we getting to 65%+ with 35% hardcore NO? If nowt happens of substance this time independence is over for a while as the nose holders are only giving her 1 more vote under sufferance. Aside from a udi I'm not sure what this substance could involve. And without broad support, anything outwith the restrictive laws we already have will crash and burn at the first hurdle. There's maybe, what 30% (being generous) absolutely hardcore indy at any cost supporters. It's the other 25-30 that we need to worry about. They're not going to come along on some violent action ride, even just rocking the boat too hard will turn them back to no. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 21 minutes ago, madwullie said: Aside from a udi I'm not sure what this substance could involve. And without broad support, anything outwith the restrictive laws we already have will crash and burn at the first hurdle. There's maybe, what 30% (being generous) absolutely hardcore indy at any cost supporters. It's the other 25-30 that we need to worry about. They're not going to come along on some violent action ride, even just rocking the boat too hard will turn them back to no. It's not my job to know all the routes available or all the moves to make, I'm just saying that if nowt happens this time a very large chunk of Indy supporters will just start voting for whichever party/candidate they feel will fulfil their ambitions after this election, ie 3 parties getting 20/30% of the vote and perhaps someone like the Greens getting a wee 5%+ uptick in their support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 14 hours ago, git-intae-thum said: ....after reading that I truly feel it's all pointless and we should just shut up and eat our cereal. A message from the dementor wing of the independence movement right enough. Let's just drain the hope and happiness right out it. The depressing thing is though that you are probably accurately reflecting the thoughts of the SNP leadership. But as Picklish has pointed out...it is up to the political class to come up with the solutions to reflect the will of the people. Otherwise it is a failure of democracy. That will is independence, and the demographics of the situation suggest that will is only going to strengthen. Doing nothing is not acceptable. The leadership need to find a solution. The leadership need to find a solution. You don't know what that solution is, but you're convinced one must exist. I wonder if we've been spoiled by democracy basically working well in Scotland since devolution. This isn't how it was before we had a Parliament. We voted for devolution in 1979 and they wouldn't give us it. Then we had 18 years of Conservative governments telling us to sit down and shut up while we all voted against them. It was screamingly obvious by Major's time that devolution was "the settled will of the Scottish people" but all we got was the Scottish Grand Committee and other stupid distractions. What we did was campaign at ground level and among civic institutions to increase awareness and support, because that's all that was possible until the English decided to vote Labour. What would you have done? Joined the Scottish National Liberation Army? There one thing you're right about - it is a failure of democracy. That's because democracy in the UK is entirely under the control of the UK parliament and that's just tough shit. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, GordonS said: The leadership need to find a solution. You don't know what that solution is, but you're convinced one must exist. I wonder if we've been spoiled by democracy basically working well in Scotland since devolution. This isn't how it was before we had a Parliament. We voted for devolution in 1979 and they wouldn't give us it. Then we had 18 years of Conservative governments telling us to sit down and shut up while we all voted against them. It was screamingly obvious by Major's time that devolution was "the settled will of the Scottish people" but all we got was the Scottish Grand Committee and other stupid distractions. What we did was campaign at ground level and among civic institutions to increase awareness and support, because that's all that was possible until the English decided to vote Labour. What would you have done? Joined the Scottish National Liberation Army? There one thing you're right about - it is a failure of democracy. That's because democracy in the UK is entirely under the control of the UK parliament and that's just tough shit. That's all very well but it all overlooks the fact that folk are just going to push it to the back of their minds until the next proper opportunity presents itself, the SNP will need to get their future votes from their performance rather than them being an Indy party. I've never really agreed with the SNP taking control of the Yes movement as their outlook on it is just one of a multitude, they've taken folks votes for independence as a show of support for all their policies, now those people are saying it's time to stand on your own two feet going forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, ayrmad said: That's all very well but it all overlooks the fact that folk are just going to push it to the back of their minds until the next proper opportunity presents itself, the SNP will need to get their future votes from their performance rather than them being an Indy party. I've never really agreed with the SNP taking control of the Yes movement as their outlook on it is just one of a multitude, they've taken folks votes for independence as a show of support for all their policies, now those people are saying it's time to stand on your own two feet going forward. I don't know what any of that means. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, GordonS said: I don't know what any of that means. It means the SNP are in last chance saloon. Folk will no longer accept her bringing forward shite legislation agreed by all her nodding dogs only to uturn when reality shows it to be shite. They vote like a cult. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, ayrmad said: It means the SNP are in last chance saloon. Folk will no longer accept her bringing forward shite legislation agreed by all her nodding dogs only to uturn when reality shows it to be shite. They vote like a cult. This is meaningless though. Pretty much every political party in existence has whipped votes on major issues, it's not something I agree with, but it's hardly an SNP-specific trait. Yet again you have identified exactly no practical way that the SNP could actually push through independence without resorting to potentially ruinous approaches such as a UDI or armed warfare which are hardly going to win us many friends in the rest of the world. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 23 minutes ago, craigkillie said: This is meaningless though. Pretty much every political party in existence has whipped votes on major issues, it's not something I agree with, but it's hardly an SNP-specific trait. Yet again you have identified exactly no practical way that the SNP could actually push through independence without resorting to potentially ruinous approaches such as a UDI or armed warfare which are hardly going to win us many friends in the rest of the world. Yip. Why not just sit back and enjoy the largesse which Barnett brings as outlined by the IFS report? Make use of the money and develop some good economic policies rather than stupid baby boxes and free tampons and the like. -10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 I'm voting SNP/Green but if you are an SNP/Idependence supporter but don't want to vote green, I'd far rather people voted Alba and got a few of them in on the list rather than pointlessly voting SNP on the list in the likes of Glasgow 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Yip. Why not just sit back and enjoy the largesse which Barnett brings as outlined by the IFS report? Make use of the money and develop some good economic policies rather than stupid baby boxes and free tampons and the like. What specifically do you oppose about free sanitary products? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiGi Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 12 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Yip. Why not just sit back and enjoy the largesse which Barnett brings as outlined by the IFS report? Make use of the money and develop some good economic policies rather than stupid baby boxes and free tampons and the like. Interesting. Why are baby boxes and free tampons not good policies? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said: What specifically do you oppose about free sanitary products? He's a misogynistic wee creep. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said: He's a misogynistic wee creep. Aye, I mean obviously the reason is that he despises women and anyone he views as beneath him economically, but was wondering what he would claim the reason to be, especially given the free sanitary products bill passed unanimously through the Scottish Parliament, as I recall. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 43 minutes ago, craigkillie said: This is meaningless though. Pretty much every political party in existence has whipped votes on major issues, it's not something I agree with, but it's hardly an SNP-specific trait. Yet again you have identified exactly no practical way that the SNP could actually push through independence without resorting to potentially ruinous approaches such as a UDI or armed warfare which are hardly going to win us many friends in the rest of the world. No, the SNP's voting history is far more cultish than the other 2 main parties IMO. If you don't have a plan B if plan A doesn't work then don't use plan A. If that's all she's got this time then why are we all voting for an Indy majority and if she has a plan B why wasn't it used the last time.? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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